BBC Four HD mux. change

prpr

Well-Known Member
BBC Four HD and CBeebies HD are to change multiplex today (Thu.). The exact time of day hasn't been confirmed. The old HD streams will be switched off on 17th January, so viewers who haven't retuned by then will lose access.
Courtesy of a516digital.
 
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gomezz

Well-Known Member
And just as important is to which MUX are they being moved so we can tune in only that single MUX rather than risk picking up rogue MUXes from adjacent transmitters?
 

Black Hole

May contain traces of nut
Ow! Bloody 5G!! As if anyone needs it (particularly if over 30).

I do not in general use the HiDef services, because of the size of recordings and my slow network when trying to stream them - and that article is threatening the simultaneous StDef broadcast may be dropped in the future. BBC will have to get its act together for regional services!
 

Owen Smith

Active Member
Ow! Bloody 5G!! As if anyone needs it (particularly if over 30).

I do not in general use the HiDef services, because of the size of recordings and my slow network when trying to stream them - and that article is threatening the simultaneous StDef broadcast may be dropped in the future. BBC will have to get its act together for regional services!

All five muxes we will have after 700MHz clearance will likely go DVB-T2 in order to have enough bandwidth to carry all the channels we currently have. At which point there is no value in multicasting SD and HD, it becomes a pure waste of bandwidth as far as the broadcasters are concerned.
 

EEPhil

Number 28
Pure speculation - but I wonder if the channels designated as public service channels might just be carried on DVB-T for a bit longer. After all there may still be people who have kit from the original switchover. Rather than a new set of cheap/free boxes for people, "they" may say you still have access to your original 5 channels at no extra cost...
I'm glad I future-proofed when I invested in kit!
Ditto.
I remember someone on here (not you) wondering why I, still using an old 4:3 tv, wanted a 2000T with HiDef channels. Future proofing, dear boy, future proofing!
 

Luke

Well-Knwοn Мember
Pure speculation - but I wonder if the channels designated as public service channels might just be carried on DVB-T for a bit longer. After all there may still be people who have kit from the original switchover.
Arqiva have also stated that they don't expect to be in a position to convert one of their 2 DVB-T muxes earlier than 2022. This is due to Arqiva's predicted loss of audience access (due to having DVB-T only equipment) expected not to have shrunk enough until then.
Years ago I remember reading an informed estimate somewhere that it would take 7 years from the date that new freeview equipment was all DVB-T2 compatible that the take up of DVB-T2 would be sufficient for DVB-T to be switched off. Given Arqiva statement that appears to be still compatible with Arqiva's public face.

Having said that, when one of the SD muxs do get converted it may have a domino effect to DVB-T2 replacement purchases as more TV watchers start to understand what is happening when a lot more than the current dozen SD channels are only watchable with 'HD' equipment.
 

Owen Smith

Active Member
Arqiva have also stated that they don't expect to be in a position to convert one of their 2 DVB-T muxes earlier than 2022. This is due to Arqiva's predicted loss of audience access (due to having DVB-T only equipment) expected not to have shrunk enough until then.
Years ago I remember reading an informed estimate somewhere that it would take 7 years from the date that new freeview equipment was all DVB-T2 compatible that the take up of DVB-T2 would be sufficient for DVB-T to be switched off. Given Arqiva statement that appears to be still compatible with Arqiva's public face.

Having said that, when one of the SD muxs do get converted it may have a domino effect to DVB-T2 replacement purchases as more TV watchers start to understand what is happening when a lot more than the current dozen SD channels are only watchable with 'HD' equipment.

Given there are six core muxes now (ignoring the HD mux, local muxes and COM7/8) and there will be five core muxes after 700MHz, someone is going to lose an entire mux. I've seen no statement about which one will cease to exist. I anticipate the PSB muxes will get a shakeup.
 
OP
prpr

prpr

Well-Known Member
Given there are six core muxes now (ignoring the HD mux, local muxes and COM7/8)
No there aren't. There are: 5 DVB-T, 1 'permanent' DVB-T2, 2 'temporary' DVB-T2, and Local.

Muxes are not HD (or SD) and shouldn't be referred to as such, seeing as what you would call HD muxes. sometimes carry SD services.
 
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EEPhil

Number 28
You're right; I would have wondered why you wanted to hang on to a 4:3 steam telly (positively Jurassic, as somebody said in a very recent post)!
It works, is difficult to recycle, and gives an impression of being green :sick:, or poor :thumbsdown:, or tight :thumbsup:.
Pure speculation - but I wonder if the channels designated as public service channels might just be carried on DVB-T for a bit longer.
My best guess (based on no evidence), would be that BBC1 (regional), BBC2, ITV (regional), C4, C5, local TV and BBC local radio could all be put on one DVB-T mux (phew! just read prpr's post and avoided putting SD mux :D ) to keep a basic service for people who don't update to DVB-T2 equipment.
 

Owen Smith

Active Member
No there aren't. There are: 5 DVB-T, 1 'permanent' DVB-T2, 2 'temporary' DVB-T2, and Local.

Muxes are not HD (or SD) and shouldn't be referred to as such, seeing as what you would call HD muxes. sometimes carry SD services.

It is a criminal offence in my view that the three DVB-T2 muxes have been allowed to carry SD channels (and particularly crap ones or pointless +1 channels at that). COM7 and COM8 should have been reserved for HD channels. Calling them HD muxes highlights this travesty, though from a technical viewpoint you are correct.

Yes I counted wrong. But it is still the case that of the 5 DVB-T and 1 permanent DVB-T2 mux one of them will be disappearing after 700MHz clearance, and I've seen no information about which one. I suspect the BBC will get a single DVB-T2 mux to themselves and the current 'permanent' DVB-T2 mux will disappear ie. the 5 DVB-T muxes carry on and it will be up to each owner whether to convert them to DVB-T2.
 
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Owen Smith

Active Member
My best guess (based on no evidence), would be that BBC1 (regional), BBC2, ITV (regional), C4, C5, local TV and BBC local radio could all be put on one DVB-T mux (phew! just read prpr's post and avoided putting SD mux :D ) to keep a basic service for people who don't update to DVB-T2 equipment.

With what bandwidth? Ignoring local TV we currently have 8 muxes, after 700MHz clearance there is only room for 5. It's hard enough to fit everything in to start with especially if Arqiva keep one of theirs as a DVB-T mux. Having a second DVB-T mux for PSB legacy won't fit, unless a single UHF channel is found for a nationwide SFN for it. And I doubt it could contain local TV however it was done, too many local TV channels not enough transmitters. I expect local TV muxes to carry on as now using whitespace, and probably on DVB-T for a while.
 
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OP
prpr

prpr

Well-Known Member
But it is still the case that of the 5 DVB-T and 1 permanent DVB-T2 mux one of them will be disappearing after 700MHz clearance
Have you got a reference for this assertion? The only things I've heard that are going are the 'temporary' COM7 and COM8, which are being moved into the 700 MHz band over the next couple of years and will then be switched off when the space is needed (by 2022?). Everything else will be below 700 MHz.
 

EEPhil

Number 28
It isn't beyond the wit of man people to "persuade" Arqiva to allow the PSB channels onto the DVB-T mux and farm out the displaced channels to a DVB-T2 (at SD). Perhaps the SFN experiment coming with COM7 and COM8 might lead to other multiplexes going the same way - I won't hold my breath.
It is a criminal offence in my view that the three DVB-T2 muxes have been allowed to carry SD channels (and particularly crap ones or pointless +1 channels at that). COM7 and COM8 should have been reserved for HD channels. Calling them HD muxes highlights this travesty, though from a technical viewpoint you are correct.
[RANT] :D
Fortunately, your view is just that - your view. If there weren't :poop: or +1 channels do you really think there would be more HD channels? Look how long it took for COM8 to be populated with anything other than QVC. The previous owners of Channel 5 didn't want to put that on in HD on Freeview either. Broadcasters just don't want to pay for the HD bandwidth on a temporary mux. I'll settle for some SD channels on the DVB-T2 muxes. I like choice. And I like being able to listen to the radio on the TV as well. I'm all in favour of reducing the number of +1 channels, particularly if there is a new channel looking for bandwidth (although I do find some of them more useful than I would like to give them credit for). The sooner the LCN hogging with 2 hour per day +1 channels stops the better.
[/RANT]
 

Owen Smith

Active Member
Have you got a reference for this assertion? The only things I've heard that are going are the 'temporary' COM7 and COM8, which are being moved into the 700 MHz band over the next couple of years and will then be switched off when the space is needed (by 2022?). Everything else will be below 700 MHz.

I thought I had a reference to hand but I can't now find it. There was a lot of discussiom about there only being room for 5 muxes a few years back on Digital UK and Ofcom sites, but everything I can find now shows 6 muxes (not including local TV) post 700MHz. Maybe they squeezed another one in, there are now several regional SFNs planned post 700MHz and also originally we were not going to have all of the 600MHz band. It looks like plans have changed and my information is out of date. The most informative article I can find is:

http://www.a516digital.com/2017/02/faq-freeview-frequency-changes-will-it.html
 

Luke

Well-Knwοn Мember
Back in November 2014 Ofcom issued a statement that their intention was for "Six national multiplexes with coverage broadly matching today".
https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0024/46923/700-mhz-statement.pdf

This reconfirmed their statement in the consultation document of May 2014 that they believed that technically "six national DTT multiplexes with coverage broadly matching that achieved today" was feasible.
https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0025/28492/consultation-future-use-700MHz-band.pdf

There was a discussion document issued by Ofcom earlier (in May 2014) and that does not appear to include consideration of 5 multiplexes either.
https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0015/32640/Future-of-Free-to-View-TV.pdf
 
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