Minimum drive size supported?

Daza

New Member
Hi all, just picked up a 1TB unit and would like to replace the very noisy HDD with a 120 or 256GB SSD. What's the minimum drive size supported?

Also I need a 3.5" to 2.5" adapter to mount the SSD to so it's not sitting on top of the motherboard, can you recommend anything? So far I've only found this one (oh can't post links, it's amazon product code B00UN550AC) that has the mount point and Data/Power connectors in the right place.

Thanks.

P.S. Thanks you to all involved in this community, the custom firmware and stuff it highly appreciated.
 

Black Hole

May contain traces of nut
What's the minimum drive size supported?
Probably 32GiB, I don't think the question has ever arisen before but we conducted experiments on UPDs (USB Pen Drives) for use with the HD-FOX and 32GiB was the smallest that would work... not just 32x10^9 but 32x2^30. Drive manufacturers cheat by calling a 32,000,000,000 byte drive "32GB" (for more info look up "GiB" in the Glossary).

The jury is out over whether an SSD is a good idea - I wore one out in about 12 months IIRC (although it was an early model), but others say the write cycle specifications for current models should withstand PVR use with TSR buffer etc for a significant time.

I can't help thinking you will find even 256GB limiting. Yes, it should be possible with rigorous housekeeping (and is what I aspire to without actually achieving), but there have been plenty of stories of filling the space up and fitting a bigger drive.

Is silence worth the cost premium and capacity limitation? The HDR-FOX can never be totally silent, it still needs an air flow to keep the internal temperature down. An HDD need not be noisy, especially if you deaden the contact between the HDR-FOX and the shelf.

Also I need a 3.5" to 2.5" adapter to mount the SSD to so it's not sitting on top of the motherboard, can you recommend anything?
Any adapter will do, it will simply fit into the existing drive+fan caddy.
 
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prpr

Well-Known Member
I would say more noise comes from the fan that the HDD, given a reasonable non-resounding surface on which the unit is mounted.
The fan appears to exist primarily to keep the HDD cool, so if there is no HDD, do you need the fan to run much, or at all?
Now there is an interesting test, especially with the current weather.

32GB is the minimum because 20GB of it gets hived off for the TSR facility, and you can't do that with a 16GB SSD.
 
OP
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Daza

New Member
Thanks for the replys.

Probably 32GiB, I don't think the question has ever arisen before but we conducted experiments on UPDs (USB Pen Drives) for use with the HD-FOX and 32GiB was the smallest that would work
Good to hear, I have a 120GB sitting spare.

The jury is out over whether an SSD is a good idea - I wore one out in about 12 months IIRC (although it was an early model), but others say the write cycle specifications for current models should withstand PVR use with TSR buffer etc for a significant time.
Endurance has been good for a while now so I'm not concerned. I wouldn't throw a low capacity QLC based drive in there though, a higher capacity maybe but it would be wasted space.

I can't help thinking you will find even 256GB limiting. Yes, it should be possible with rigorous housekeeping (and is what I aspire to without actually achieving), but there have been plenty of stories of filling the space up and fitting a bigger drive.
It's just a backup box, I do all my recording on a PC, this box will sit next to it so I can watch TV while at the PC and record when the PC is off (rarely). Anything that does get recorded on it will be offloaded onto the PC so space won't be an issue. I can probably hear it more than if it was accross the room but even then I'd still put an SSD in it TBO.

Is silence worth the cost premium and capacity limitation? The HDR-FOX can never be totally silent, it still needs an air flow to keep the internal temperature down. An HDD need not be noisy, especially if you deaden the contact between the HDR-FOX and the shelf.
Doesn't need to be silent but honestly I've got a lot of HDDs and this thing is loud. It being right next to me doesn't help either.

Any adapter will do, it will simply fit into the existing drive+fan caddy.
3.5" drives have 3 mount holes on each side, some adapters are shorter and only have 2 closer together so they wouldn't all line up. Securing it with just one screw on each side would probably be enough to secure it, but I'd prefer to just get a full length one and not worry about it coming lose, dropping onto the MB and all that fun stuff.
Also, see your excellent disassembly guide, the slot on the fan caddy for the HD fan/power connector is narrow, not all adaptors have the drive mount points to the side to line up with that slot in the caddy, some are offset towards the middle slightly or just all the way over in the middle. You wouldn't be able to plug int the cables then as the connectors on the drive would be hidden by the caddy.

@Daza It's not the fan you are hearing is it? (As it's been warm of late.)
Unfortunately not, the fan doesn't come on until the drive hits 55C, I double checked it wasn't spinning. I then removed the drive and connected it to my PC via an external HDD dock. The rotational noise of the platters is loud but also the seek noise is the loudest I've heard for a ~5400RPM disk. It's probably mostly caused by age.

I would say more noise comes from the fan that the HDD, given a reasonable non-resounding surface on which the unit is mounted.
The fan appears to exist primarily to keep the HDD cool, so if there is no HDD, do you need the fan to run much, or at all?
Now there is an interesting test, especially with the current weather.

32GB is the minimum because 20GB of it gets hived off for the TSR facility, and you can't do that with a 16GB SSD.
When the fan first kicks in their both as bad as each other TBO, just different types of noise but both intolerable when right next to them. This drive is probably a lot louder than when it was new. Thanks to the custom firmware I've already tamed the fan, if it's going to be quiet enough when an SSD is in there or as you say needed at all we shall see.

Will throw a 120GB SSD in tomorrow and see what's what. Thanks for your help.
 

prpr

Well-Known Member
An interesting project might be for somebody to 3D-print an SSD compatible caddy...
I have no desire, knowledge, experience or time.
 

Black Hole

May contain traces of nut
3.5" drives have 3 mount holes on each side, some adapters are shorter and only have 2 closer together so they wouldn't all line up.
So you know what to look for then, or...
An interesting project might be for somebody to 3D-print an SSD compatible caddy...
I have experience, but it seems to me a simple piece of plywood could do the job, SSDs being so thin. Or simply mount the SSD directly onto the caddy somewhere.

the fan doesn't come on until the drive hits 55C
That is far too hot, and the default behaviour of the Humax firmware. Running the fan at a constant low level using the fan package keeps the temperature down and stops the fan kicking in like a jet engine as an emergency measure.

The fan appears to exist primarily to keep the HDD cool
The HD-FOX has no fan (and similar components except for an HDD), but it also has much more ventilation in the case. The HDR-FOX case has next to no passive ventilation.

honestly I've got a lot of HDDs and this thing is loud
So it's the fault of that particular HDD then! There is no reason the HDR-FOX HDD should be any noisier than any other HDD, all other things being equal. That is not to say you can't fit an SDD if you want to - your usage appears to be significantly different from the norm.
 

Ezra Pound

Well-Known Member
Unless I've remembered incorrectly, it's what the SMART stats say: FAIL
so every Humax HDD that has reached 55 Dec C has failed has it?, I think we both know that this 'Fail' flag is what is used by Humax to turn the fan on, it is a completely normal running temperature
 

af123

Administrator
Staff member
so every Humax HDD that has reached 55 Dec C has failed has it?, I think we both know that this 'Fail' flag is what is used by Humax to turn the fan on, it is a completely normal running temperature
That FAIL status is from the drive firmware itself. It's not consistent with the specs from the drive manufacturer though - they say it can run much hotter.
The Humax firmware does not use the threshold from the drive firmware, it has a fixed temperature threshold at which it brings the fan on.
 

Ezra Pound

Well-Known Member
@af123 so do you agree with BH's statement that 55 Deg C is "far too hot"?, every Humax HDR Fox T2 ever built has run at this temperature, many have been reaching this temperature multiple times every day for the best part of 10 years
 
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Black Hole

May contain traces of nut
Look, whether it is within spec is irrelevant: the software sounds an alarm bell (whether inappropriate or not) therefore it is too hot. We know we can run our systems at 40degC with a little fan.
 

Ezra Pound

Well-Known Member
Look, whether it is within spec is irrelevant: the software sounds an alarm bell (whether inappropriate or not) therefore it is too hot
Too hot for what?, when it can work reliably reaching this temeperature for 10 years?, I use the fan program as do many others to reduce fan noise, but the temeperature that Humax run the standard unit is not too hot and is definitely not "far too hot"

The :-
spec is irrelevant
We need to chisel this into stone just in case we should forget it
 
OP
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Daza

New Member
An interesting project might be for somebody to 3D-print an SSD compatible caddy...
This would be an ideal little project for a 3D printer. Don't have one though sadly, one day though one day.

So you know what to look for then
Yes, just thought someone might have already used something they could suggest. I've found one now though, it's on the way.

I have experience, but it seems to me a simple piece of plywood could do the job, SSDs being so thin. Or simply mount the SSD directly onto the caddy somewhere.
I've got some perspex sheets I could use to make an adaptor, or just bodge it to the caddy but as I said I'd rather not bodge it or spend time making an adaptor when they are so cheap.

That is far too hot, and the default behaviour of the Humax firmware. Running the fan at a constant low level using the fan package keeps the temperature down and stops the fan kicking in like a jet engine as an emergency measure.
Not really to hot, it's by design. It's hotter than I'd like to run it because it just heats the room up, otherwise 55C doesn't concern me.

So it's the fault of that particular HDD then! There is no reason the HDR-FOX HDD should be any noisier than any other HDD, all other things being equal. That is not to say you can't fit an SDD if you want to - your usage appears to be significantly different from the norm.
No, it's above the norm, got a horrible whine to it, but even my quietest HDD would be too loud as I'm right next to it.

Haha, yep many ways to bodge it.


Quick update:
Got rid of the fan grill



and while it was open connected the SSD up to make sure the box would play nice with it, success.



Without the HDD can hear that the fan has a slight rattle. May replace it with a noctua-nf-a4x10-flx, especially if it get louder.

Temps without the HDD or the lid on the box are 58C on the top of the CPU heatsink, around 10-15C lower elsewhere including the PSU heatsinks. Don't think fanless is an option even without a HDD. Might even be a good idea to put a second intake in the floor towards the front, could probably run the fans even slower then.

So just waiting for the adaptor now
 
OP
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Daza

New Member
BODGE???? That most definitely was not a bodge, those were properly machined holes for the screws.
Yes bodge. I didn't say it was a bad one, it is a bodge none the less. You could of saved your time and just used velcoro as well, no need for even a drill :)

Why? Don't you own a drill?
Why would I need a drill? I've said, several times now, I don't want to bodge it. There's also no ariflow accross the top of that drive so your halving it's cooling.

Thinking about it, there isn't even a need for the HDD caddy. You could fabricate a bracket to mount the SSD to and screw it into the caddy mount holes. Then the fan is pulling air through the whole system and not just through the caddy.
 

Black Hole

May contain traces of nut
Yes bodge. I didn't say it was a bad one, it is a bodge none the less.
No, sorry, not acceptable. "Bodge" carries connotations of temporary or slap-dash, and (as a career engineer) I regard that as insulting. What I did was an engineering modification, in a way that Velcro would not be. The only minor dissatisfaction I had was that the holes were fractionally out (not having the use of a machine shop) so the SDD did not fit precisely square.

It's a quick, cheap, and easy mod in a way that replacing the whole caddy isn't, and it only needs two 3.0 or 3.5mm holes plus the M3 screws which (presumably) were supplied with the SDD – purchase of an adapter is not necessary, and indeed over-kill.

You could fabricate a bracket to mount the SSD to and screw it into the caddy mount holes. Then the fan is pulling air through the whole system and not just through the caddy.
Who is this "you" of which you speak? You might; I could but probably wouldn't bother; many people would be unable.

Bodge: Make or repair (something) badly or clumsily. Ref:
1591179315351.png

Yes, I do bodges when the situation warrants, but this wasn't one – quick, cheap, and easy does not imply "bodge".
 
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