Strange scheduling with repeated programs - native Series Link or Remote Scheduling effect?

TonyC

Member
I've been having some strange things going on when using Remote Scheduling to set recordings of programs that are on several times over a few days. I'm not sure if it's an RS thing, a native Series Link think, or just my imagination...

When a program is on several times over the course of a week (ie the same episode repeated), I will often schedule one of the repeats rather than the first broadcast, so it doesn't clash with (or directly follow on from) another recording. (It's common for something to be on at (say) 9pm one night, and then repeated at 2am a couple of days later. ) But although I am 99% sure I have set the later broadcast, it is actually the earlier one that gets recorded. Is this a feature of Remote Scheduling (either by accident or design), or a feature of Freeview+ Series Link? I know SL is supposed to automatically record a later broadcast of something if the original schedule had a clash, but I didn't think it worked the other way round.

Normally this behaviour isn't a problem, but on Thursday I had a failure to record of something on BBC2 when I had actually scheduled the Monday evening repeat. The Monday repeat isn't now in the schedule, so it doesn't seem to have been automatically corrected for.

Any thoughts?
 
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TonyC

Member
Well, yes, certainly if the series / CRID data is wrong then the 'Fox won't be able to correctly reschedule a clashing recording.

My question is why, having specifically asked RS to record something on Monday, it (either RS or the 'Fox) decided to instead schedule it for the previous Thursday. RS knew that the two programs were the same, so I presume the CRID data was correct.
 

af123

Administrator
Staff member
Can you look at the logs in the RS site and post some extracts?
First click the 'More' button underneath the brief logs on the main page and then scroll down to the bottom and click on 'Show diagnostic entries'. See if you can find when the recording was set by your Humax - that should tell us which bit of the process swapped the recording time.
 
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TonyC

Member
OK, thanks.
The program in question was "Blurred Lines: the new battles of the sexes" on BBC2. The first showing was at 21.30 on Thursday 9th, but I am 95% sure I actually set the repeat at 23.35 on Monday 12th. I did the setting on Wednesday evening and then there was a scheduled reboot at 5.30 am on Thursday.

The relevant days of the log seem to be:

Code:
09/05/2014 22:08:53 Recorded: In Search of Ourselves___/In Search of Ourselves... (69 minutes - BBC Radio 4)
09/05/2014 20:51:28  Updated pending reservation data.
09/05/2014 20:51:27  Acknowledged command 105610.
09/05/2014 20:51:27  Successfully scheduled event (with padding).
09/05/2014 20:51:27  Found event - Robot Wars
09/05/2014 20:51:27  Trying source service/event ID.
09/05/2014 20:51:27  Schedule 22226/11357/1/46/Challenge/1399712400/Robot Wars
09/05/2014 20:51:26 Processing command 'schedule '
09/05/2014 20:51:26  Acknowledged command 105609.
09/05/2014 20:51:26  Successfully scheduled event (with padding).
09/05/2014 20:51:25  Found event - Pop Go the Women: The Other Story of...
09/05/2014 20:51:25  Trying source service/event ID.
09/05/2014 20:51:25  Schedule 17472/43896/1/102/BBC TWO HD/1399750200/Pop Go the Women: The Other Story of...
09/05/2014 20:51:25 Processing command 'schedule '
09/05/2014 20:50:18  Queued new command [schedule||22226|11357|1|46|Challenge|1399712400|Robot Wars].
09/05/2014 20:48:49  Queued new command [schedule||17472|43896|1|102|BBC TWO HD|1399750200|Pop Go the Women: The Other Story of...].
09/05/2014 19:12:12  Updated live reservation data.
09/05/2014 19:10:53 Recorded: /The Now Show (41 minutes - BBC Radio 4)
09/05/2014 17:11:53  Updated live reservation data.
09/05/2014 17:05:52 Recorded: More or Less/More or Less (36 minutes - BBC Radio 4)
09/05/2014 14:31:26  Updated live reservation data.
09/05/2014 14:25:51 Recorded: Neighbours/Neighbours (41 minutes - Channel 5)
09/05/2014 10:50:51  Updated live reservation data.
09/05/2014 10:50:50 Recorded: Minibeast Adventure with Jess/Minibeast Adventure with Jess (21 minutes - CBeebies)
09/05/2014 06:50:53  Updated live reservation data.
09/05/2014 06:50:48 Recorded: /Breakfast (9 minutes - BBC ONE HD)
09/05/2014 05:32:13  Updated live reservation data.
09/05/2014 05:29:39  Updated pending reservation data.
09/05/2014 05:29:38  Updated live reservation data.
09/05/2014 05:29:11 System booted.
09/05/2014 04:42:09  Updated live reservation data.
09/05/2014 02:06:30 Updated disk contents.
09/05/2014 01:10:54  Updated live reservation data.
08/05/2014 22:52:40  Updated live reservation data.
08/05/2014 22:45:47 Recorded: Ripping Yarns/Ripping Yarns (44 minutes - BBC FOUR HD)
08/05/2014 22:12:00  Updated live reservation data.
08/05/2014 22:10:46 Recorded: /Wanted: A Family of My Own (71 minutes - ITV HD)
08/05/2014 22:02:15  Updated live reservation data.
08/05/2014 22:00:47 Recorded: The First Georgians_ The German Kings___/The First Georgians: The German Kings... (61 minutes - BBC FOUR HD)
08/05/2014 21:41:19  Updated pending reservation data.
08/05/2014 21:41:19  Acknowledged command 105538.
08/05/2014 21:41:18  Successfully scheduled event (with padding).
08/05/2014 21:41:18  Found event - GoldenEye
08/05/2014 21:41:18  Trying source service/event ID.
08/05/2014 21:41:18  Schedule 17603/21953/1/103/ITV HD/1399671300/GoldenEye
08/05/2014 21:41:18 Processing command 'schedule '
08/05/2014 21:35:38  Queued new command [schedule||17603|21953|1|103|ITV HD|1399671300|GoldenEye].
08/05/2014 20:41:10  Updated live reservation data.
08/05/2014 20:40:46 Recorded: /New: The Big Bang Theory (41 minutes - E4)
08/05/2014 16:10:55  Updated live reservation data.
08/05/2014 16:05:44 Recorded: /Dino Dan: Trek's Adventures (26 minutes - CITV)
08/05/2014 14:31:18  Updated live reservation data.
08/05/2014 14:25:44 Recorded: Neighbours/Neighbours (41 minutes - Channel 5)
08/05/2014 10:50:53  Updated live reservation data.
08/05/2014 10:50:42 Recorded: Minibeast Adventure with Jess/Minibeast Adventure with Jess (21 minutes - CBeebies)
08/05/2014 06:52:03  Updated live reservation data.
08/05/2014 06:50:40 Recorded: /Breakfast (9 minutes - BBC ONE HD)
08/05/2014 05:32:01  Updated live reservation data.
08/05/2014 05:29:12  Updated pending reservation data.
08/05/2014 05:29:12  Updated live reservation data.
08/05/2014 05:29:04 System booted.
08/05/2014 04:41:41  Updated live reservation data.
08/05/2014 02:32:21  Updated live reservation data.
08/05/2014 02:25:40 Recorded: Orphan Black/New: Orphan Black (51 minutes - BBC THREE HD)
08/05/2014 02:05:55 Updated disk contents.
08/05/2014 01:12:20  Updated live reservation data.
07/05/2014 23:12:16  Updated live reservation data.
07/05/2014 23:10:39 Recorded: Cardinal Burns/Cardinal Burns (41 minutes - Channel 4 HD)
07/05/2014 22:21:25  Updated pending reservation data.
07/05/2014 22:21:25  Acknowledged command 105414.
07/05/2014 22:21:25  Successfully scheduled event (with padding).
07/05/2014 22:21:24  Found event - Wanted: A Family of My Own
07/05/2014 22:21:24  Trying source service/event ID.
07/05/2014 22:21:24  Schedule 17603/21295/1/103/ITV HD/1399579200/Wanted: A Family of My Own
07/05/2014 22:21:24 Processing command 'schedule '
07/05/2014 22:11:57  Queued new command [schedule||17603|21295|1|103|ITV HD|1399579200|Wanted: A Family of My Own].
07/05/2014 22:11:29  Updated pending reservation data.
07/05/2014 22:11:28  Acknowledged command 105413.
07/05/2014 22:11:28  Successfully scheduled event (with padding).
07/05/2014 22:11:27  Found event - New: The Big Bang Theory
07/05/2014 22:11:27  Trying source service/event ID.
07/05/2014 22:11:27  Schedule 8448/20944/1/28/E4/1399575600/New: The Big Bang Theory
07/05/2014 22:11:26 Processing command 'schedule '
07/05/2014 22:11:26  Acknowledged command 105412.
07/05/2014 22:11:25  Successfully scheduled event (with padding).
07/05/2014 22:11:25  Found event - Blurred Lines: The New Battle of the...
07/05/2014 22:11:24  Trying source service/event ID.
07/05/2014 22:11:24  Schedule 17472/43929/1/102/BBC TWO HD/1399933500/Blurred Lines: The New Battle of the...
07/05/2014 22:11:24 Processing command 'schedule '
07/05/2014 22:11:03  Queued new command [schedule||8448|20944|1|28|E4|1399575600|New: The Big Bang Theory].
07/05/2014 22:10:38 Recorded: The Birth of Empire_ The East India___/The Birth of Empire: The East India... (71 minutes - BBC TWO HD)
07/05/2014 22:10:16  Queued new command [schedule||17472|43929|1|102|BBC TWO HD|1399933500|Blurred Lines: The New Battle of the...].

I'm assuming from your response that this is not expected or intended behaviour? :)
 

af123

Administrator
Staff member
Well, you definitely set the Monday repeat - the schedule line includes the timestamp, 1399933500, which is
Mon May 12 22:25:00 2014 GMT. What I can't tell from the logs is whether it was the RS process that set up the wrong recording or whether the standard Humax software changed it later. I honestly can't remember if it's expected behaviour but it doesn't feel right.

I'll do some testing and see if I can work out what's happening.
 
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TonyC

Member
In case it helps, this was the email I got at 8.16 Thursday morning from RS:

Code:
Conflicts have been detected in your recording schedule on humax.
The following events conflict:
 
106 BBC FOUR HD    Thu 08/05/14 21:00 - 22:00: The First Georgians: The German Kings...
103 ITV HD          Thu 08/05/14 21:00 - 22:00: Wanted: A Family of My Own
102 BBC TWO HD      Thu 08/05/14 21:30 - 22:30: Blurred Lines: The New Battle of the...
 

cdmackay

Active Member
I think I've seen this too, recently. I set up a BBC Four programme to record in the early hours, to avoid clashing with late evening progs. But the late evening version of the programme got put in the schedule instead.

Unfortunately, I didn't collect any details; but the behaviour you describe sounds the same.
 

grahamlthompson

Well-Known Member
The way the crid codes work is that the first occurrence of the series crid within the epg gets scheduled irrespective of which episode you set the recording from. Try setting a soap like say Emmerdale from next Wednesday. Now look at the next scheduled recording of Emmerdale.
 

Black Hole

May contain traces of nut
I set up a BBC Four programme to record in the early hours, to avoid clashing with late evening progs.
Early hours repeats tend to be with signing, so you probably didn't want that anyway.

If you have CRID display turned on (hidden menu - see Things Every... or wiki), check what the series CRID is. If the series CRID is the same for the repeat, the Humax has no way to distinguish between the programmes. Series schedules only look at the series CRID and record any programme which turns up with that CRID, as long as it doesn't have the same programme CRID as the one it recorded before (I don't know, but I fancy the is some kind of incrementing code in the CRID that gets compared).

What often happens is that the first transmission has one series CRID and the repeat has another CRID, so that they are treated as different series. This way it should not switch the recording (and you can record both series separately if desired.
 
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TonyC

Member
Early hours repeats tend to be with signing
Often so, yes - but not in this case.

If the series CRID is the same for the repeat, the Humax has no way to distinguish between the programmes. Series schedules only look at the series CRID and record any programme which turns up with that CRID, as long as it doesn't have the same programme CRID as the one it recorded before
For a series recording, yes, that makes sense. But when recording a one-off program, surely it should be possible to specify which broadcast of it you want, rather than just picking the first with a matching CRID?
 

Black Hole

May contain traces of nut
I think the problem is that the schedule is able to update itself in case the broadcast time of a particular programme is altered. In this case you pick one version of the programme, but then at some time prior to the recording taking place the system notices that a programme with a matching P-CRID is listed in the EPG at an earlier time, and dutifully tracks it.
 

MikeSh

Well-Known Member
What often happens is that the first transmission has one series CRID and the repeat has another CRID, so that they are treated as different series. This way it should not switch the recording (and you can record both series separately if desired.

A related question that I've wondered about: How are the +1 channels handled? Presumably they must also get different series CRIDS (so they aren't a true +1). Or is the channel itself part of the ID?
 
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TonyC

Member
In this case you pick one version of the programme, but then at some time prior to the recording taking place the system notices that a programme with a matching P-CRID is listed in the EPG at an earlier time, and dutifully tracks it. ("Reply" function isn't working for some reason)
Well, that sounds highly plausible - and also highly annoying. For the case where it generates a clash where none existed before, it's just stupid.

I wonder how it could be avoided? Presumably RS could set a "fixed time" recording not a "specific event" recording; you would lose the ability to track time changes, but for a program on in the next day or two, and on a channel that doesn't normally show live sport, this would probably be a risk worth taking.
 

Black Hole

May contain traces of nut
I find the +1 services frequently offer a solution to a conflict, but with three HDRs in the house I don't have a problem!
 

af123

Administrator
Staff member
A related question that I've wondered about: How are the +1 channels handled? Presumably they must also get different series CRIDS (so they aren't a true +1). Or is the channel itself part of the ID?
The channel isn't part of the ID but the Humax won't jump channels when following a series, even though I believe it should as part of the spec.. It also keeps a history of recently recorded CRIDs against each entry in the schedule (the szRecordedProgCrid column in the raw database view) so you shouldn't get duplicates that are fairly close together assuming the broadcaster has given them all the same event CRID.

One problem at the moment is that the RS system prefers channels with a higher number - that was originally a ploy to prefer the HD versions of recordings but now it is causing it to often schedule something on 5+24 for example.
 

DelftBlue

Member
The channel isn't part of the ID but the Humax won't jump channels when following a series, even though I believe it should as part of the spec

In my experience, that isn't a totally watertight rule ... more like 'the Humax won't usually jump channels' when following a series ... but it can do it sometimes ...

As grahamlthompson mentioned above, Channel 5 do some crazy things with both programme and series IDs. Quite random stuff.

The classic example is a series recording for Home and Away, for either the 1.15pm or 6pm episode on Channel 5 - which will frequently muddle up which time it records .... and then amazingly also manages to include a recording of the 6.30pm showing on 5* - which is the wrong episode at the wrong time on a completely different channel. :confused:
 
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