WebIf failing to schedule second part of split recording

[MikeSh]

I've had a few 'lost' second parts of split recordings over the last many months. These are usually films on lesser channels like 5, ITV2, etc, where an hourly update of some sort is essential ... apparently ... and involve the jigsaw icon. I think I've see others report this and it's usually been attributed to broadcaster errors.
But I think I've found the (or a) culprit, though not the mechanism. I have done a forum search (using Google) and not found any prior art on this, so apologies if it's already known.

Today SWMBO required "The Pirates ..." to be recorded. I set it up using WebIf but noticed the second part wasn't showing when I checked the schedule. So then I did some playing around. Eventually I set up the recording on ITV2 using the Humax interface on the TV and then set up the ITV2+1 version using WebIf.
The end result is shown in the following pictures which are a mixture of screen dumps from WebIf on my tablet and pictures of the TV screen.

The schedule on the Humax - The ITV2 version set using the Humax interface has the additional sections (including repeats in a week) but the ITV2+1 has only the first segment. Note the jigsaw icon is present, so it is known. (Yes, the guide was fully populated.)




This is the WebIf image of the same, and looks the same.




This is how it appears on the Guide in the Humax system. The second part of the ITV2+1 has no clock item - not set to record.




Same as above on the WebIf display.



So it seems to me that the WebIf is not dealing with 'jigsaw' series correctly.

???

 

[Black Hole]

So it seems to me that the WebIf is not dealing with 'jigsaw' series correctly.

That strikes me as entirely possible, but it shouldn't cause a malfunction in the standard code.

(is that Pirates as in the Aardman studio? Damn, missed that.)

 

[MikeSh]

That strikes me as entirely possible, but it shouldn't cause a malfunction in the standard code.

My best guess is that when using the Humax interface you get the choice of "Record whole programme" or "Reminder" but in the background the system actually sets a series of some description. (For a proper series you also get the option to record the series as well.)
The WebIf may not be setting that 'series link' thing.

(is that Pirates as in the Aardman studio? Damn, missed that.)

The Pirates! In an Adventure with Scientists! Yes indeed.
But as you see above it's repeated next Sunday, 8th Nov, so you haven't missed this iteration entirely.

 

[Luke]

That strikes me as entirely possible, but it shouldn't cause a malfunction in the standard code.

There use to be a similar issue where it did impact the standard code.
It was occurring where the broadcaster was using double digit IMI extensions. But that was corrected a couple of years ago and in today's example the IMI extension is a single digit, which has been working a lot longer than 2 years.

Using RS/RTS for linked programs - still needs a restart ?

More for awareness than anything else. I stated in another thread (https://hummy.tv/forum/threads/wrong-crid-for-shetland.8547/page-2#post-120645) that linked program scheduling was not working for me. I only use RS for scheduling programs and I have found that, with linked programs, RTS does...

hummy.tv

So it seems to me that the WebIf is not dealing with 'jigsaw' series correctly.

These days I find it does take a few minutes for the other half to show up on the Humax UI as being scheduled.
With next Sundays Pirates! it displayed on the schedule, and the epg, on the HUMAX GUI a few minutes later for me.

 

[Black Hole]

My best guess is that when using the Humax interface you get the choice of "Record whole programme" or "Reminder" but in the background the system actually sets a series of some description. (For a proper series you also get the option to record the series as well.)
The WebIf may not be setting that 'series link' thing.

The "series link" of which you speak is similar to series link, but actually a separate mechanism to cope with split broadcasts. The scheduling doesn't offer a choice: if you schedule a recording which is part of a split, all the elements of the split are set to record automatically. However, as noted elsewhere, the broadcasters do not always cope with splits properly (or maybe there's an inadequacy in the mechanism), so if a split programme is repeated you often get the repeats recorded as well.

 

[MymsMan]

Split recordings are Not treated like a series internally, they are a third type of recording - neither single recording nor series
Stupidly the rules stipulate that all parts have an identical crid

I have never been able to schedule a single part of a split recording using webif/RS/or remote, the webif/rs schedules the part you specify but the humax adds all of other parts. Even if you had deliberately chosen to record the 8th November showing the Humax would have added todays episodes

Schedchk will attempt to remove uneeded repeats from the schedule (it chooses the first non conflicting showing)

 

[MymsMan]

the broadcasters do not always cope with splits properly (or maybe there's an inadequacy in the mechanism),

The problem is the Humax code does not implement the rules correctly, If there is more than three hours between segments they are seperate showing according to the specs. But stupidly the rules requires the same IMI number rather than giving each showing a unique IMI which would be much simpler

 

[MikeSh]

These days I find it does take a few minutes for the other half to show up on the Humax UI as being scheduled.

What about the schedule on the Webif, after it's rebooted? (I'm not using the no-restart software (can't remember the name).)

 

[Black Hole]

However, as noted elsewhere, the broadcasters do not always cope with splits properly (or maybe there's an inadequacy in the mechanism), so if a split programme is repeated you often get the repeats recorded as well.

The problem is the Humax code does not implement the rules correctly

Oh yes; thanks for the reminder.

I'm not using the no-restart software (can't remember the name

Real Time Scheduling (RTS) - a setting in WebIF >> Settings >> Advanced Settings.

I set it up using WebIf but noticed the second part wasn't showing when I checked the schedule. So then I did some playing around. Eventually I set up the recording on ITV2 using the Humax interface on the TV and then set up the ITV2+1 version using WebIf.

These days I find it does take a few minutes for the other half to show up on the Humax UI as being scheduled.

I set a schedule on my HD-FOX for Pirates... on ITV2 next Sunday using Guide >> Find >> Keyword >> New Keyword >> "PIRATES", which displays four items (first split ITV2; first split ITV2+1; second split ITV2; second split ITV2+1). Selecting the first item and setting "Record the whole programme" marked both the ITV2 elements iinstantly.

Ditto for the ITV2+1 list entries.

Moving to the WebIF EPG, the first curiosity is that running the "pirates" search produces six hits, the additional two being for ITV2 on the Welsh transmitter. For some reason the SUI EPG for that version of ITV2 is completely blank whereas the WebIF EPG is populated.

Clicking the ITV2 (England!) first split in the search results produced programme details complete with the split icon, and lists two start times with the first split and "Also" the second split (and in my case a third identical item, presumably the ITV2 [Wales transmitter] second split). Having clicked "Record Programme", both splits immediately showed as scheduled on the SUI (after a screen refresh). Doing the same for ITV2+1 produced a conflict notification (due to other items in the schedule). Removing the ITV2 schedule via the SUI immediately marked the ITV2+1 items as scheduled (without a separate screen refresh).

Within the WebIF: Scheduling the first split on ITV2 showed just the first split set in the visual schedule and on the grid view EPG. This was confirmed on the SUI. A few minutes later though, everything was resolved with both splits shown scheduled on visual, EPG, and SUI search. For ITV2+1, exactly the same except the resolution was much quicker.

In summary: everything is working as it should, but I had to allow a few minutes for it all to catch up with itself.

What I think is happening is that the WebIF does not resolve split recordings for itself, but relies on the SUI scheduling to resolve the split before WebIF picks it up and displays the correct details.

This is reasonable, because it avoids any possibility of the WebIF interpretation differing from the SUI interpretation. However, it can leave the user confused because of the lag in status update. Maybe that could be avoided by having some kind of changes pending pop-up.

But the most important outcome is I now have Nick Park's Pirates!... set to record!

 

[MikeSh]

In summary: everything is working as it should, but I had to allow a few minutes for it all to catch up with itself.

What I think is happening is that the WebIF does not resolve split recordings for itself, but relies on the SUI scheduling to resolve the split before WebIF picks it up and displays the correct details

OK, so it seems to be just a time delay thing, though it seems excessively slow given that the box had rebooted and I'd waited several minutes before taking those pictures.
But next time she wants a split film (I rarely do as I usually only grab HD versions) I'll give it more time.

Just one other possible loophole - Do you think there is a chance that if the box is put into standby before this linking has been processed then it won't complete when the box is next started?
It's normal for me to set these up, do the reboot, check the schedule and immediately put the box back to sleep.

 

[MikeSh]

But the most important outcome is I now have Nick Park's Pirates!... set to record!

I'm very happy for you

 

[bottletop]

I'm very happy for you

Me too, because this reminded me to set up a recording as well!
I hate these split recordings, I tend to go back to the HDR (SUI?) and manually correct them, by going to menu/schedules/find entry/right/ok/manually alter end time/ok, then recheck the entry is ok. This has the advantage of making sure my recording is not split, and DetectAds will insert the bookmarks for me later so I won't notice the middle insignificant filler program. This has the effect of making the schedule entry completely manual (no AR) but it's worth it for me.

 

[Black Hole]

This has the advantage of making sure my recording is not split... This has the effect of making the schedule entry completely manual (no AR) but it's worth it for me

What I would do is simply join the recordings together (there is a WebIF function to do that).

 

[Black Hole]

Do you think there is a chance that if the box is put into standby before this linking has been processed then it won't complete when the box is next started?

No. The delay is purely administrative within the WebIF - with one part of a split recording scheduled in the SUI schedule database, the other part is automatic.

 

[bottletop]

What I would do is simply join the recordings together (there is a WebIF function to do that).

Yes, that will also also work.
One issue I have found with these split timers for a film (I think on some five.tv and associated channels) is that it schedules the film in 2 parts and also the 2 parts for when they repeat the film. So I end up with 4 entries on the schedule for 2 films when I only wanted 1 film. This sometimes causes conflict and head scratching on my part.

 

[MymsMan]

One issue I have found with these split timers for a film (I think on some five.tv and associated channels) is that it schedules the film in 2 parts and also the 2 parts for when they repeat the film. So I end up with 4 entries on the schedule for 2 films when I only wanted 1 film. This sometimes causes conflict and head scratching on my part.

My new schedchk package will remove the repeated showings from the schedule

 

[MikeSh]

No. The delay is purely administrative within the WebIF - with one part of a split recording scheduled in the SUI schedule database, the other part is automatic.

I'm not so sure. The HDR is also 'misreporting' the status of the second part following a Webif reservation - see photos in my OP.
That doesn't happen if it's set up using the Humax interface.

 

[Black Hole]

I saw a delay within the HDR too - but its processes are being subverted so it's not surprising.

When scheduled through the SUI, the process which creates the schedule entry is already aware of the split and may well have been programmed to set up the multiple entry.

Via the WebIF, it appears only one part gets scheduled and we can be thankful that the other part gets spotted and added. It could be that this is part and parcel of the process which reviews recording schedules against the current EPG and tweaks them to track changes - maybe a single recording is capable of becoming a split.

Regardless, I don't think this will cause any problems in practice unless the user happens to set the second split part (rather than the first) through the WebIF, either very close to transmission of the first split part or with the HDR going into standby almost immediately.

So yes, I think there might be a hypothetical possibility of mis-operation, but I suspect it would be very hard to provoke.

 

[MikeSh]

So yes, I think there might be a hypothetical possibility of mis-operation, but I suspect it would be very hard to provoke.

Challenge accepted.

 

[Black Hole]

Yeah, I guess we'll all have a go at it now!