Evolution vs. Creationism

[Black Hole]

I've had a thought which has rocked my faith in atheism.

We are well aware that creationists point at something complex like the eye, and declare that as proof of design. An evolutionists say that the eye evolved from just a light sensitive cell and subsequent random mutations by survival of the fittest. Fair enough, I don't expect to get any counter argument in our community of the scientific-minded.

Okay, fine... but how could heredity have come about? Evolution implies random mutation, but also the ability to hand down useful traits to offspring. We are aware that DNA provides that mechanism, now that DNA exists, but what about before DNA had evolved? The ability of DNA to control development and function requires a huge suite of proteins in a chemical factory. There does not seem to me to be an intermediate stage.

Help!

 

[EEPhil]

You've opened a can of worms here. I've no answers. I struggle with creationism and evolution. Neither answers the questions. Could it be similar to the wave/particle duality in quantum mechanics? Or, in other words, "Nobody knows"*.
(* An early series of QI)

 

[trog]

Obviously we exist in an advanced Sims like world, welcome to the Matrix.

Are we living in a simulation? And how do we escape?

Are we living in a big computer simulation? And if we do: how do we escape? That is what a computer scientist aims to find out.

scienceillustrated.com

 

[Black Hole]

For that kind of thing, I apply Occam's Razor.

 

[EEPhil]

If Musk believes it, it must be wrong.

 

[trog]

For that kind of thing, I apply Occam's Razor.

That is 14th-century thinking you need to be looking at it from a 40th century point of view. We have seen how in a very short time we have gone from a game of Pong on your TV to having an AI avatar convincing enough to fool people that it is a real person so it is not that much of a leap of imagination to assume that a simulation detailed enough to match our present existence will be possible in the future and if so then it is also possible that we are existing in it now.

 

[trog]

If Musk believes it, it must be wrong.

But what possible reason other than a future programmer having a laugh could explain Trump being POTUS twice?

 

[Black Hole]

That is 14th-century thinking

But still valid.

Are we in a simulation? That would not be a "we", that would be a "me" and everything I experience is simulated for my benefit. I'll accept that technologically it may be possible at some future time, but fundamentally: why, and why me?

It is a far simpler explanation that what I experience is real, and is therefore the most likely explanation.

Same thing with a postulated god: if you need a god to explain your own creation, then where did the god come from? Requiring a god requires the creation of a god, so creationism ends up explaining nothing at all, and it is simpler to accept the notion that life arises spontaneously.

 

[EEPhil]

and it is simpler to accept the notion that life arises spontaneously

That still leaves the question of what came before life? If it was nothing that who/what/how did nothing spontaneously spring to life? ...and where did that come from?

 

[Black Hole]

Now you're into Big Bang etc. I'm happy with "just is".

 

[EEPhil]

I've had a thought which has rocked my faith in atheism.

I'm happy with "just is".

So you've got your faith back.(?)

 

[Black Hole]

"Just is" is fine (for me) for the existence and origin of the Universe, but there is a long stretch between random clustering of atoms into organic compounds and the emergence of heritable characteristics in organisms.

 

[trog]

But still valid.

Are we in a simulation? That would not be a "we", that would be a "me" and everything I experience is simulated for my benefit. I'll accept that technologically it may be possible at some future time, but fundamentally: why, and why me?

It is a far simpler explanation that what I experience is real, and is therefore the most likely explanation.

Same thing with a postulated god: if you need a god to explain your own creation, then where did the god come from? Requiring a god requires the creation of a god, so creationism ends up explaining nothing at all, and it is simpler to accept the notion that life arises spontaneously.

I think you may be having delusions of grandeur. The simulation may have just given you an intelligence and ability to interact with other characters but to all the others you never interact with you are nothing more than a background NPC.

 

[EEPhil]

[to BH] I think you may be having delusions of grandeur.

Surely not!

 

[Black Hole]

I think you may be having delusions of grandeur. The simulation may have just given you an intelligence and ability to interact with other characters but to all the others you never interact with you are nothing more than a background NPC.

That still seems a remote possibility vs. real life.

 

[trog]

That still seems a remote possibility vs. real life.

So it is a possibility, I will take that.

 

[Black Hole]

So I'm a figment of your imagination then, and not a real thorn.

The other thing I have against creationism (or simulation) is that they would render further research pointless.

 

[trog]

So I'm a figment of your imagination then, and not a real thorn.

The other thing I have against creationism (or simulation) is that they would render further research pointless.

No we are both just part of the simulation. Maybe the simulation is an exact copy of a genuine reality and its purpose is to further research or aim to prevent a future event by making changes to the past and they need to make sure those changes do not cause a butterfly effect. Maybe both of us did exist a long long time ago. They may have found a way to actually in some way time travel back or do you think that is never going to be possible?

 

[Black Hole]

I remain unimpressed. Lack of evidence against is not the same as evidence for, and so far as I can see it is a postulate with no evidence. In fact, I would go so far as to say it is a delusion no less than theism. A scenario for fiction only.

PS: Thanks for bringing that up, I have a friend who suggests similar and I've now settled my stance on it.