HDMi Recognition

[Pravda]

I realise there's already a thread of a similar vein, but I'm not concerned with standby, and/or odd actions regarding wake/standby. I've not been able to get that far! I'm merely concerned with the interaction, or lack of it, between the FVP4000 units and certain modern Smart TV's.

In short, getting the Humax to even display on the television screen is nigh impossible.

Humax customer care have instructed owners experiencing these problems to connect up their equipment with component RCA leads and abandon HDMI full stop - until Humax can figure out what's not working, and more importantly - how to fix matters.

1. Connection on HDMI isn't recognised. The normal workaround would be to change the mode of operation of the HDMI port (turning off/on HDMI-CIC to solve recognition issues).

2. Even after identifying the TV's HDMI port settings which seemed to enable the FVP4000 unit to work, after one or more standby operations with the Humax, and it is no longer recognised as a connected HDMI device.​

To try and combat this a hard restart will sometimes work, and less frequently - physically disconnecting the HDMI cable may invoke a semblance of ad-hoc normality. Whilst everything is working I've tried setting the Humax so as never to enter power saving mode, but alas even this doesn't mean the next time you want to use it that it will in fact remain recognised by the television.

The unit in question was purchased by an elderly family member, in their eighties, who does not want to have such a steep learning curve with a supposedly 'plug and play' Humax box (never mind the quasi-constant need for bending and stooping to jiggle around with power and HDMI cables).

Between purchase in October 2015 and the present time, Humax customer services have lied tabout what's really happening. They have claimed these same issues with the FVP4000 units have "only been known of this last 1-2 weeks" yet in the next breath told an engineer who was called out to inspect the issue "we've been working on a firmware update for the last couple of months".

They've offered a refund for the unit, in writing, subject to sparring with customer support to exhaust all possible remedies which could be implemented - yet once it's become obvious by working with customer support that nothing will remedy the matter they revert to refusing a refund on the basis that a new firmware release is supposedly imminent, and also cite the fact that an alternative FVP4000 unit has not yet been tried.

Fortunately there is consumer protection under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act (in the UK) for just this sort of nightmare scenario, and with no actual remedy known or proposed I consider that their ongoing advertising for this all singing and all dancing triple tuner PVR is highly misleading.

How many others are having similar troubles, and may not even know of these forums? I note that ebay's absolutely awash with recent models of the FVP4000 guise - always a clear indicator of a problematic piece of hardware.

 

[sceptic]

I have heard a few mentions of CEC problems which cannot apparently be turned off via the Humax software currently. I wonder if fitting one of these might help, see HERE...

 

[Barry]

Hi, I wonder if that could be my main problem with my FVP-4000T?
Mine often will not start up while recording, I have to wait until the recording is finished, then unplug from the wall and restart, so far I have not lost any recordings.

 

[Black Hole]

That's pretty typical - starting a HDR-FOX from recording-in-standby frequently results in no HDMI.

 

[grahamlthompson]

That's pretty typical - starting a HDR-FOX from recording-in-standby frequently results in no HDMI.

Never has done with either of my HDR FOX T2's which have been connected by 3 different AV receivers (Denon Sony and currently Yamaha).

 

[Black Hole]

It never bothers me either, because my units are rarely recording in standby, but we have had a lot of reports of this occurring.

 

[grahamlthompson]

It never bothers me either, because my units are rarely recording in standby, but we have had a lot of reports of this occurring.

It seems to be specific makes and models of TV's. It's reported on other Humax boxes with the Freeview Play FVP4000T and the 2000T seeming to be the most affected. With my TV/AV combinations never had any problems booting from sby with a HDR1000S or a Foxsat-hdr both of which have similar reports.

 

[Ezra Pound]

I get this problem roughly 50% of the times I turn on from recording in standby, possibly because my Samsung LE46A786R2 is an older 2009 model

 

[Pravda]

Humax have supplied another FVP4000T, following a discussion with the head of customer services.

I've connected it and in spite of deactivating standby mode and all 'off' timers, as soon as the source HDMi connection is changed on the television the set will not recognise the Humax upon re-selecting the relevant HDMi source afresh.

The only way to get it working is to perform a mains 'off/on' cycle whilst keeping the TV on the correct HDMi input. Even then it takes around 45 seconds longer than you'd expect for the output from the unit to result in anything being displayed.

I'd already disabled the TV setting 'standby if signal lost' to achieve even this (default is for the TV to go into standby mode after 30 seconds if no signal is detected).

Humax advise connecting the PVR using component/RCA cables, however there's no SCART on the set, there are no RCA cable in the Humax box, and those inputs are in use for an old VHS/VCR.

I mentioned this belongs to elderly relatives, and with them being frail and in their eighties, and finding it physically difficult to access the rear of their wall mounted TV, I do not consider that Humax can consider their instructions in this respect are workable or acceptable. In addition they are not 'technophobes' and would find it difficult to understand what they need to do and which cables would need unplugging and reconnecting.

If I take up a Fox HDR T2 and connect it on HDMi then that unit works perfectly.

Something in the FVP4000 architecture, and/or its firmware, makes the unit simply unfit for purpose; and there is no hard and fast date for any firmware upgrade.

On other forums users are describing the FVP4000T as 'a turd which Humax still need to polish' which seems pretty apt.

Opinion runs as deeply as buyers and end users being part of Humax' Beta Testers... and there is speculation that because the FVP4000T has YouView architecture that this impedes what Humax are able to do to revise the firmware, although it's unclear whether the size of the firmware in operation would challenge (or exceed) the capacity of the IC component on the circuit board inside the unit (eg; is there sufficient capacity for a more expansive firmware release to actually run on the unit).

I'm going to write back to Humax a second time and express my disgust and ask where they will accept service of proceedings, and then file a claim with the County Courts online which will result in Humax having to defend themselves in a hearing about whether their product is fit for purpose and whether they've breached consumer law in selling it as it stands, and whether the judge considers their steps to resolving the issues in question have been sufficient under the circumstances.

Anyone else facing this problem, and the additional issues other posters highlight on this forum and others, might seriously want to consider doing the same.

You have only to Google 'Humax FVP4000T doesn't work' and the search engine throws up the suggestion 'Samsung TV'... which means there are a high number of people making that same search enquiry!

Fact is the product doesn't do what it says on the tin and Humax have been unable to fix it, yet they continue to sell this equipment direct to the public, and through high stteet outlets, with absolutely no caveats or warnings about it being incompatible with certain television sets...

In short FVP4000T owners have every reason to be disgusted, especially those whose television isn't being sent the correct handshake over HDMi for the Humax set to even cause itself to be properly recognised...

 

[Black Hole]

The first thing to understand is that HDMI is itself a can of worms. You are not in a position to prove whether the problem is at the PVR end... or the TV end. Just because it doesn't work when the Humax is connected doesn't necessarily make it Humax's fault. In order to prove it, you would have to analyse the HDMI transactions and demonstrate which end was not complying with the detail of the specification, bearing in mind that the specification has been evolved over a period of time so each end would have to be considered from the point of view of the specification that was in effect at the time - and it's possible that neither of them either meet or fail to meet the detail of the specification because there are contradictory elements (hearsay - you have to be in the HDMI club to get access to the specification at all).

The major issue is that the FVP-4000T (and the HDR-FOX) is capable of HiDef TV reception. This means that they are not allowed to just output HDMI - they have to negotiate with the display device using an encrypted challenge-response system to verify that the display device is industry authenticated with no recording capability. This happens every time the HDMI interface starts up or is reconnected, and is the source of many problems. A simple DVD player may seem to "just work" - that's because it doesn't have to bother with the authentication stage and simply outputs HDMI all the time.

If you were to line up loads of models of TVs and loads of models of HDMI sources (HiDef - ie HDTV or Blu-ray), I'm pretty sure you would find very few sources that worked with every single TV. The sale of goods act (or whatever it's called these days) has you covered - you just take it back to the retailer and say "this doesn't work with my TV" and you get a refund.

Your contract of supply is with the retailer, not Humax. If you take the unit back to the retailer, and ask for your money back, and the retailer complies, then you have received everything you are entitled to in law. Anything Humax might do for you, unless they are the direct supplier to you, is courtesy.

Under those circumstances, do you really think you should be trying to go to law over this? The small claims court will throw it out, and to take proceedings anywhere else will be expensive, time consuming, and ultimately unsuccessful.

Now, all that aside, there do seem to be things manufacturers can do to improve the user experience, and there have been tweaks to the HDMI handshaking during the evolution of the HDR-FOX code. The 4000 is rather early in its life cycle for any of this to have taken place, and there can be little doubt that complaints are focussing Humax's attention.

Whether Humax are any more prone to this than anyone else, I wouldn't know. As I only inhabit a Humax forum, I see plenty of complaints - but that doesn't mean other manufacturers don't have a similar number of complaints. Why should the 4000 behave differently from other Humax models? Well, it could be that their supplier for the HDMI interface chip has changed the specification of the chip (ie withdrawn an old model and replaced it with another, or Humax chose to use a newer chip because of the possibility of the supply of the old chip drying up). There are many factors which can make life hard for manufacturers, and one should not be too quick to damn them - do you really think they deliberately go to all the cost of bringing out a new product without doing all they can to ensure it is a good seller?

There are interventions you can make yourself, if you want to persist with the 4000 at all. For example: have you checked whether there is a firmware update for the TV? You could try fitting an HDMI matrix switch between the 4000 and the TV (eg one like this), which breaks up the negotiation chain and may overcome the problem.

Ultimately, for the smoothest possible user experience, the best advice is to source all your AV components from the same manufacturer (be that Samsung, Sony, Panasonic - whoever). Within house, they might reasonably be expected to have the same interpretation of the detail of HDMI, and have tested their products in conjunction with their other products - and if a particular combination doesn't work, you know who to blame.

 

[Pravda]

The first thing to understand is that HDMI is itself a can of worms. You are not in a position to prove whether the problem is at the PVR end... or the TV end. Just because it doesn't work when the Humax is connected doesn't necessarily make it Humax's fault. In order to prove it, you would have to analyse the HDMI transactions and demonstrate which...

I appreciate this, but do you think that all that technical bumpf should really, or remotely even fairly, be on the minds of elderly consumers in their eighties who were told it would be a 'plug n' play' like viewing & recording solution?

The major issue is that the FVP-4000T (and the HDR-FOX) is capable of HiDef TV reception. This means that they cannot just output HDMI - they have to negotiate with the display device using an encrypted challenge-response system to verify that the display device is industry authenticated with no recording capability. This happens every time the HDMI interface starts up or is reconnected, and is the source of many problems. A simple DVD player may seem to "just work" - that's because it doesn't have to bother with the authentication stage and simply outputs HDMI all the time.

This just compounds what I've said above about technicality and the consumers concerned. Whilst I somewhat agree I would remark that HDMi isn't USB (where you'd expect to perhaps have negotiation made with the help of a driver.ini file) and since the industry have applauded and adopted HDMi as their de-facto present day connectivity standard then they are each individually responsible to make sure it's implementation is to the correct industry standard on all devices.

If you were to line up loads of models of TVs and loads of models of HDMI sources (HiDef - ie HDTV or Blu-ray), I'm pretty sure you would find very few sources that worked with every single TV. The sale of goods act (or whatever it's called these days) has you covered - you just take it back to the retailer and say "this doesn't work with my TV" and you get a refund.

Not having myriad devices to try it out upon, I cannot comment. However you're predicting a dismal picture which just reinforces the 'fit for purpose' theme of my grumble. As for getting a refund, this thread would not have even been started here had Humax behaved amiably and done that!

Your contract of supply is with the retailer, not Humax. If you take the unit back to the retailer, and ask for your money back, and the retailer complies, then you have received everything you are entitled to in law. Anything Humax might do for you, unless they are the direct supplier to you, is courtesy.

The Humax unit was purchased direct from Humax UK, so I'm very much afraid they hold responsibility both as manufacturer and supplier.

Under those circumstances, do you really think you should be trying to go to law over this? The small claims court will throw it out, and to take proceedings anywhere else will be expensive, time consuming, and ultimately unsuccessful.

Firstly, since Humax have lied to me about making a refund (by saying it would be granted proviso to technical support routes of rectifying the problem first being exhausted) and then reneging upon this statement by subsequently adding that provision of another unit is part and parcel of that technical support - but sending another identically dysfunctional unit out...

Secondly, I have occasionally taken far more difficult and complex issues to the courts and prevailed, so what is the legal reason under consumer sales law that makes you consider a claim would be unsuccessful?

Finally, their attitude in discussing matters is poor, blaming the consumer and insinuating old people cannot grasp how to use the equipment properly, lying about when they first knew of the issue, lying about when new firmware will be available, disputing that they've already said to the customer in prior discussions, and generally giving buyers the runaround, is something I find unacceptable, rude, and derisory...

Now, all that aside, there do seem to be things manufacturers can do to improve the user experience, and there have been tweaks to the HDMI handshaking during the evolution of the HDR-FOX code. The 4000 is rather early in its life cycle for any of this to have taken place, and there can be little doubt that complaints are focussing Humax's attention.

This is a rather fundamental flaw, and one I don't remember the HDR-FOX units as suffering from. Humax admit it's a firmware issue. In the event that you consider, and you're obviously experienced, that they may resolve it based on historical events along similar lines with the HDR-FOX code, then the least that a buyer should be able to expect is an interim fix now, and a definitive date for an updated firmware to eradicate the issue for good and cure some other inconveniences with the unit (such as a comparatively primitive EPG display for example).

Ironically I note you are running custom firmware on some or all of your own Humax units, which kinda suggests you didn't think that much of Humax's own firmware by comparison! (Although this is a 'tongue in cheek' comment as I know what the alternative firmware is capable of doing be comparison...)

There are interventions you can make yourself, if you want to persist with the 4000 at all. You could try fitting an HDMI matrix switch between the 4000 and the TV (eg one like this), which breaks up the negotiation chain and may overcome the problem.

I thought I'd made in clear that I do not wish to persist with the unit. However, if fitting an HDMi matrix switch might resolve the issues, then perhaps it would be entirely fair to expect Humax to provide that equipment at no extra cost since they claimed the FVP4000 would work fine when connected directly to a HDMI television set!

With other users having immense problems with the 4000 units waking from sleep, making recordings when left in standby, and such like, adding another layer of complexity to the issues would only provide Humax with an additional defence in any dealings and arguments... so I see no benefit in taking that step and feel that, almost inevitably, it might cause as many problems as it solves.

Take a look on eBay at the staggeringly high numbers of FVP4000' units for sale by comparison to HDR FOX T2's, for instance, and it might give an inkling away regarding how widespread the problems are. At present everyone who has purchased the PVR is a guinea pig who is effectively one of an 'army of unpaid Humax Beta Testers' and who are (to quote another poster on this subject from another popular Humax forum) effectively helping Humax to 'polish a turd' and over time transform it into a rose...

 

[Black Hole]

I appreciate this, but do you think that all that technical bumpf should really, or remotely even fairly, be on the minds of elderly consumers in their eighties who were told it would be a 'plug n' play' like viewing & recording solution?

Like it or not, modern equipment appears simple on the surface, but is highly complex underneath. It should "just work", it ought to "just work", but in reality it frequently doesn't "just work".

The Humax unit was purchased direct from Humax UK, so I'm very much afraid they hold responsibility both as manufacturer and supplier.

...and I expect you will find that Humax UK (as a retail organisation) has only a supplier remit. Nonetheless, you are still entitled to a refund and that is your right, although they are also entitled to offer alternative remedial actions.

I'm not an apologist for Humax, far from it, but I want to ensure you go into anything with eyes open - pursuing a course of law is not likely to be a rewarding experience, and the maximum recompense will be the purchase price. Not worth the bother.

 

[Black Hole]

By the way, you missed this bit (because I was still constructing while you were replying):

have you checked whether there is a firmware update for the TV?

 

[Pravda]

By the way, you missed this bit (because I was still constructing while you were replying):

Yes, that was one of the first steps taken.

 

[Black Hole]

Take a look on eBay at the staggeringly high numbers of FVP4000' units for sale by comparison to HDR FOX T2's, for instance, and it might give an inkling away regarding how widespread the problems are.

Well, I just did. I thought, if disgruntled users are selling these off for whatever they can get, instead if just going and getting their money back, maybe I'll take one off their hands and see for myself. You know what? I plugged "fvp-4000t" into the eBay search bar and it came up with just one page of listings, and in that list I could only see one entry that looked like a private sale - all the others were the usual on-line suppliers selling as new at around £200. Nothing unusual in that.

You're right, there are not many HDR-FOXes to be had - but there used to be, when they were still available new, and now most people will have either got rid of theirs or will be hanging on to them with no intention of getting rid until they fail and get binned.

Draw your own conclusions people. Go have a look for yourselves if you don't believe me.

 

[Pravda]

Draw your own conclusions people. Go have a look for yourselves if you don't believe me.

Your point is? Have you looked over the other forums, where grumbles about the FVP4000 are nothing short of rife?

As regards eBay, can you somehow magically distinguish between a 'new' FVP4000 unit on eBay, and one which is a customer return? If so, how? Are you not aware many retailers use eBay for selling rejected goods which have already been sent to a customer - and returned, either under the distance selling regulations or as a result of a face to face transaction, because the law allows that but doe not allow them to sell it direct from their own website or store counter afresh.

I wonder why Humax are so desperately clinging to the 'defence' of "we're due to release new firmware to solve these issues..." if there were, as you insinuate, little that's actually wrong...

And as per your earlier quips about taking legal action not being worthwhile, and your remark about it only being possible to get a refund and nothing more, what are you when it comes to purchases? Are you someone who purchases goods and when they don't remotely do 'what it says on the tin' - sits back, satisfied? What made you think I was even seeking a penny more than the costs incurred?

I asked you earlier for which legal reason made you believed a court would not find in the consumers favour in this instance... but you didn't answer that point...

Were the matter to end up in County Court then Humax would be expected to prove that the goods were fit for purpose at, and following the point of sale. They couldn't prove that. Fact is they wouldn't let it go to court. This would be settled privately since court decisions are recorded in the public domain and it could then be used by other consumers as an argument or precedent in further disputes! Not only that, for a £200 item it wouldn't be worth them instructing and paying for a lawyer to attend and argue the issue!

You said earlier that you are not a Humax apologist, but what's your point of commenting incessantly on a thread where you do nothing little beyond making snidish' remarks, and have not made a single helpful interjection...

Facts are my elderly parents bought this product direct from Humax, and it doesn't work. Fact is they are one of a growing and significant number of buyers with grumbles and who are dissatisfied. It's nigh impossible to get it to even turn on the Humax and have the TV receiver recognise it. Their complaint isn't frivolous in the slightest. It's not a post that I've made for anyone to poke fun at, and I happen to do the right thing and assist them when something like this happens, and a disreputable retailer wants to pocket their £205.99 payment even though the goods are rubbish.

I have a FOX HDR unit which does a bloody great job, and a far better one than the brand new all singing and dancing FVP4000 can manage. I also have a far more expensive Panasonic PVR/Blu Ray unit which just works. I'm not a beta tester for either of these and I do not see why Humax thinks my folks should be a beta tester for their FVP4000 unit.

 

[Black Hole]

As regards eBay, can you somehow magically distinguish between a 'new' FVP4000 unit on eBay, and one which is a customer return?

No, and neither can you. That part of your "evidence" is invalid. Plug in any other manufacturer and model and you will find similar listings.

You will always find grumbles about items of consumer electronics if you go looking for them, it is very difficult to conclude that any one item is any more troublesome than another. There were enough about HDR-FOX when it was initially introduced! FVP-4000T may be worse, but it's hard to be sure without access to objective customer return figures.

I accept that you have a valid complaint and have been treated appallingly by Humax support, but all us old hands on here already know that Humax support are crap. That's one reason for having these forums - experienced users can provide proper support for inexperienced ones.

However, I do think you are excessively aerated about it. You buy something, you don't like it, you take it back. That's it. Like it or not, the retailer no implied responsibility other than to give you your money back if the product doesn't work. Full stop. And you still can't prove whether it's the Humax or the TV that's the problem.

 

[Trev]

Like it or not, the retailer no implied responsibility other than to give you your money back if the product doesn't work. Full stop.

Unless you buy it on line.

 

[Black Hole]

...in which case you can get your money back even if it does work, within a 14-day sale-or-return window. Changes nothing.

 

[Trev]

Of course it doesn't change nothing. If you buy from a shop you can't "get your money back even if it does work, within 14 day sale-or-return window".