Horizon

[Black Hole]

We're only getting one side of this story. Whilst I do not in any way seek to minimise the devastating impact of the attitude the Post Office took to accounting errors which should have been a smoking gun, I have questions:

Surely there are some cases of genuine fraud/theft within post office branches, pre-Horizon, which Horizon may have been intended to detect more easily. Were the Post Office therefore reasonable in thinking it was doing its job? Were Fujitsu incentivised to report deficits?

Lots of money crosses the counter at post offices, therefore there have to be very strong disincentives against fraud/theft, and examples made of anyone found to have committed fraud/theft. Where are the examples of actual fraud/theft now having been committed under the cover of a supposed Horizon error? Should all postmasters be automatically exonerated?

Where are the examples of when Horizon said there was a surplus of cash rather than a deficit? Did postmasters simply pocket that "surplus"? Or was the bug such that it could only ever show a deficit?

 

[MikeSh]

Should all postmasters be automatically exonerated?

It seems clear that most of these convictions are wrong or unsafe (partly because the PO themselves are involved in the trial and appeals processes, which is a conflict of interest) and it's taking too long to get through the appeals. Many think that to avoid more people dying while waiting it would be better to give a bulk pardon* of some kind and accept a few actual criminals get away with it.

This is not unusual really. We often hear of normal criminal cases where convictions are found unsafe and overturned on technicalities, even though it's obvious the person 'did it'.

Your other points are good ones but I have no answers. I hope they are be part of the investigations now the police are involved but I've not seen anything specific about them.

( * There is a good BBC explainer about some options and the pros and cons for this:
What can be done about Post Office scandal convictions? )

 

[Black Hole]

It seems clear that most of these convictions are wrong or unsafe

I agree they are unsafe, wherever they relied solely on Horizon 'evidence', but I think it is dangerous to assume all cases were entirely wrongful. Nonetheless, trying to weed them out will prolong the actual miscarriages unduly so it seems any actual frauds will go unpunished, and potentially given a compensation bonus!

But you can see how it's not quite so black-and-white as the media coverage might suggest.

Along with that, there was the huge problem of postal fraud which the Royal Mail (yes I know, theoretically a different organisation) has addressed by introducing stamp bar codes. It is not very surprising that Post Office / Royal Mail are paranoid.

 

[MikeSh]

But you can see how it's not quite so black-and-white as the media coverage might suggest.

The media I follow have not been so crude

addressed by introducing stamp bar codes

Although I know they have come in I must confess I haven't actually read or investigated myself how these actually help.

 

[Black Hole]

Although I know they have come in I must confess I haven't actually read or investigated myself how these actually help.

There were loads of forgeries circulating, and still are... but now the "unsuspecting" users (I say unsuspecting, but they're bought on-line at less than market price) find their mail isn't delivered.

 

[MikeSh]

Interesting times ...
Can scheme to quash Post Office convictions work?
(BBC article, 10 Jan)

 

[Black Hole]

I note (midnight news) it has been acknowledged that some guilty parties are likely to get caught up in the en-masse exoneration and compensation.

There were loads of forgeries circulating, and still are... but now the "unsuspecting" users (I say unsuspecting, but they're bought on-line at less than market price) find their mail isn't delivered.

I mean, one stupid woman posted a cheque to pay the annual charge on her time-share (using stamps bought via Amazon at less than face value), and the management company contacted her to say it hadn't arrived, and if they didn't receive the cash tout-suite she would lose her time-share... so what did she do? Posted another cheque using another from the same batch of stamps! If I had been in that position I would have sent the second cheque special delivery!!

 

[MikeSh]

so what did she do? Posted another cheque using another from the same batch of stamps!

This is why the human race is doomed to self destruct. The morons are far more prevalent than the ones with a functioning brain.

 

[Black Hole]

it doesn't take morons to result in self-destruction. It has long been my thesis that any advanced "civilisation" will eventually outstrip its resources.

 

[antipodean]

I note (midnight news) it has been acknowledged that some guilty parties are likely to get caught up in the en-masse exoneration and compensation.


I mean, one stupid woman posted a cheque to pay the annual charge on her time-share (using stamps bought via Amazon at less than face value), and the management company contacted her to say it hadn't arrived, and if they didn't receive the cash tout-suite she would lose her time-share... so what did she do? Posted another cheque using another from the same batch of stamps! If I had been in that position I would have sent the second cheque special delivery!!

Surely the QR code is more easily forged than the rest of the stamp ...

I suspect that the sale value of the stamp is embedded in the code, and at a suitable time some scanning equipment will check the value of stamps against the weight and size of an item and reject any items that don't have sufficient postage attached. Especially likely after a price adjustment in postage rates when old stamps bought before the increase are used on items posted after the increase.

 

[antipodean]

Surely there are some cases of genuine fraud/theft within post office branches, pre-Horizon, which Horizon may have been intended to detect more easily. Were the Post Office therefore reasonable in thinking it was doing its job? Were Fujitsu incentivised to report deficits?

There have been some cases that have already gone to appeal where the Judge has claimed that the evidence doesn't support the claim that they were prosecuted due to deficiencies in the Horizon system, and the original prosecution has been allowed to stand. However I would be very wary of saying that the persons involved were actually guilty as i wouldn't trust any evidence from the Horizon system.

Before horizon, how many people were being prosecuted each year for embezzlement? The numbers being prosecuted after Horizon went live must have raised eyebrows somewhere at the huge increase in numbers.

There have been items in the on-line newspapers this week about people getting cash bonuses for each prosecution.

 

[MikeSh]

Surely the QR code is more easily forged than the rest of the stamp ...

The code on each stamp is unique (for how long I don't know * ) so can be tracked through the system. Eventually you'll be able to track items without paying extra and the recipient will be able to scan the code and see bespoke media, like video, that you have 'sent' them ... or so it's proposed.
Any duplicate of a code would be picked up - or possibly the original would be flagged if it happened to be used after the copy.

(* It's not a very big code so the permutations must be finite and with the number of stamps involved there must be a timescale where they have to reuse them or change the system - much like with car registrations.)

[ @Black Hole ... I've done some Googling )

 

[Black Hole]

I suspect that the sale value of the stamp is embedded in the code

Yes, and the batch and place of origin etc etc etc

Surely the QR code is more easily forged than the rest of the stamp

Doesn't matter much if the crypto hash is wrong. The alternative is to duplicate an existing "barcode" (that's what they call it), which is going to get noticed.

But overall, the problem was that stamps are easier to forge than banknotes, which is why they became a target.

It's not a very big code so the permutations must be finite

Finite yes, but not very big? Have you counted the dots?!

 

[prpr]

Eventually you'll be able to track items without paying extra

Ha, you reckon?

the recipient will be able to scan the code and see bespoke media, like video, that you have 'sent' them ... or so it's proposed.

I can't see that anybody is ever going to bother with that.

find their mail isn't delivered.

So what does Royal Mail do with such stuff now? Bin it, or recycle it, or incinerate it?
In the old days, you'd get an insufficient postage sticker on the item and the postman would ring the doorbell and demand money if you wanted it.

Before horizon, how many people were being prosecuted each year for embezzlement? The numbers being prosecuted after Horizon went live must have raised eyebrows somewhere at the huge increase in numbers.

That's the question I want answered too. I'm sure it was nothing like as many, which just adds further weight to the management knowing that there was something wrong but, like so many managers, they just refused to accept it or decided to ignore it as too 'inconvenient' for the furtherment of their grubby agenda (and their bonuses).
It's blindingly obvious to me that the V woman (and all the others involved in positions of power) should be hounded relentlessly for money, and life made a complete and utter misery, seeing as she has been the overseer of hundreds and possibly thousands of cases of actual theft (not just suspected or implied-by-default theft). In practice this means she should have been arrested by the pigs and charged by now. Why she hasn't really is beyond me. 20 years in prison would seem to be the absolute minimum, which will certainly see her out.

 

[Black Hole]

In the old days, you'd get an insufficient postage sticker on the item and the postman would ring the doorbell and demand money if you wanted it.

This, except you get invited to pay and collect at the delivery office (what we used to call sorting offices). Business won't bother to do that, so what happens then I don't know.

That's the question I want answered too. I'm sure it was nothing like as many, which just adds further weight to the management knowing that there was something wrong

But that is my point. If Horizon was installed for the purpose of detecting suspected fraud, they would not have been surprised to find the numbers going up!

 

[MikeSh]

Ha, you reckon?

Which is why I said it is proposed. Making paid tracking services redundant looks to me like an own-goal, but who knows what the management of RM and PO are really like?
Oh, hang on - we are beginning to find out ...

I can't see that anybody is ever going to bother with that.

Indeed. It's a big thing in all the articles I read, but the security/anti-forgery aspect is noticeably low profile. Smacks of PR finding a use to show how good it will be for us rather than how good it will be for them.

 

[Black Hole]

Smacks of PR finding a use to show how good it will be for us

It's definitely not for us (rather like ClassicFM > DAB+ wasn't for us, no matter what they claimed)!

 

[MikeSh]

It's a longish read (BBC News article) but the last few paragraphs (above the bold Related Topics heading) give a fair summary:
Post Office lied and threatened BBC over Horizon whistleblower

 

[Black Hole]

I might be being cynical here, but that article reads much like Daily Mail articles bigging up their role in one expose or another. I'm not saying it's inaccurate, just that the BBC are making sure they get a slice of the pie.

 

[EEPhil]

I might be being cynical here, but that article reads much like Daily Mail articles bigging up their role in one expose or another. I'm not saying it's inaccurate, just that the BBC are making sure they get a slice of the pie.

You may be right to be cynical. Notice how they say "TV drama" not "ITV drama". (Was it really only 4th January this year that this drama appeared? I seem to think it had been trailed for a long time. I'd got the impression that it was already available on ITVX. Obviously not. Yet another senior moment then!)
BTW. What flavour pie?