Proof Positive: Do Not Tune to Multiple Regions

Black Hole

May contain traces of nut
I couldn't think of the best place to post this, so here it is as a separate topic.

I've been fooling around with a "new" HDR-FOX I won on eBay (destined for the den and as an experimental machine without disturbing normal operations). At the moment I have it tuned on autoscan, which means I have everything from Mendip (West) and Mynydd Machen (Wales). To check out something from the other place I had a bunch of CBBC and CBeebies (Wales, as it happened) set to record (with AR), and was watching BBC1HD (West) live.

The time passed for a recording to start and the ring had not turned red. Funny, I thought, so I flicked up the EPG to check and then selected the CBBC channel (Wales) - and sure enough the recording started. Oh yes, I thought, and resumed BBC1HD on Wales.

A bit later I was back on West, after my last scheduled recording had started. The time passed for the recording to finish but the ring was still red. Switched back to Wales and the ring turned blue straight away. This is Important, because one would think that if one of the tuners is actively being used to record a programme it should also be monitoring the AR signal on that particular channel to decide when to stop - but apparently it doesn't.

As far as I am concerned this is definite proof that AR signals do not work if the main TV output is sourced from a different region's transmitter. I *think* padding would work, although EPG updates probably would not get through unless the main source is from the same region at the time, and whether the subsequent programme in a series recording will get scheduled is anybody's guess.

I'm not sure how you tell which is the "main" source when the HDR is recording from standby (potentially two channels simultaneously). This would enable us to devise a procedure which might allow multiple region working.

Update: see here - http://hummy.tv/forum/threads/advice-for-tuning-multiple-regions.3429/
 
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Not really, this is complementary. It is useful to have the cross-reference though, thanks.
 
I'm not sure how you tell which is the "main" source when the HDR is recording from standby (potentially two channels simultaneously). This would enable us to devise a procedure which might allow multiple region working.
When it a single successful recording in stand-by then that recording dictates which transmitter is the focus.
I don't have such extensive experience (*) with two recordings but so far I've got the impression that after two overlapping stand-by recordings have finished it is the recording which ended the last which dictates.
(* The reason being is that use manual reminder timers of 1 minute to ensure that I am on the appropriate transmitter and a strong mux.)

To find out the "main" source when the HDR is recording 2 programmes, set an AR reminder timer scheduled for when two manual recording in active stand-by are occurring from two different transmitters. For the 1st recording view the same mux/transmitter just prior to placing the HDR into stand-by. This would need to be tried out at least twice with the AR reminder using the same mux/transmitter as the first started recording and then for an AR reminder for the same mux/transmitter as the second initiated recording.
Then repeat the exercise to see if the result is consistent varying the mux/transmitter used when the HDR was placed in stand-by.
Then repeats swapping transmitters around, just in case the position of the tuning in the memory has an effect.

I.e.
Last watched tranmitter/mux =A, 1st recording from A, 2nd recording from B, AR reminder from A's transmitter
Last watched tranmitter/mux =A, 1st recording from A, 2nd recording from B, AR reminder from B's transmitter
Last watched tranmitter/mux =B, 1st recording from A, 2nd recording from B, AR reminder from A's transmitter
Last watched tranmitter/mux =B, 1st recording from A, 2nd recording from B, AR reminder from B's transmitter

Last watched tranmitter/mux =A, 1st recording from B, 2nd recording from A, AR reminder from A's transmitter
Last watched tranmitter/mux =A, 1st recording from B, 2nd recording from A, AR reminder from B's transmitter
Last watched tranmitter/mux =B, 1st recording from B, 2nd recording from A, AR reminder from A's transmitter
Last watched tranmitter/mux =B, 1st recording from B, 2nd recording from A, AR reminder from B's transmitter

Edit: Correct 2nd set of 4 and add clarity.
 
Luke - are you actively and deliberately recording from different regions as normal practice, or just for research?
 
I was recording from different regions as normal practice. I was using the strongest muxs.

For the transmitter that I tended to use the least I used manual recordings, followed by a manual 1 minute reminder to reset to the main transmitter. Also any OAD was blocked using my main transmitter and one of the strongest mux.
Currently I only use 1 transmitter. Some of the muxs can drop out every now and again so use the same methods to make sure that most of the time the HDR is looking at a more reliable mux.
 
Is this just confirmation of what af123 stated in his post:

Yes, I rather think it is. My post just says why it causes problems, but I haven't done much investigation to determine exactly how the Humax behaves so the new information helps build up the knowledge base. Incidentally, I've seen the same behaviour on rare occasions and I definitely don't have more than one region - I had previously assumed that something went wrong with whatever mechanism synchronises the EPG data across the MUXs (specifically the 'programme running' flag which must originate with the channel provider).

A bit later I was back on West, after my last scheduled recording had started. The time passed for the recording to finish but the ring was still red. Switched back to Wales and the ring turned blue straight away. This is Important, because one would think that if one of the tuners is actively being used to record a programme it should also be monitoring the AR signal on that particular channel to decide when to stop - but apparently it doesn't.

We don't know what logic the Humax uses to determine which tuner is used for the EIT extraction. Most likely though it would be the channel being watched live (wrong region in this case).

...and whether the subsequent programme in a series recording will get scheduled is anybody's guess.

It would be if the right circumstances presented. i.e. the right EPG data set is available at boot time (box was tuned into non-Wales region last time it was turned off).
 
We don't know what logic the Humax uses to determine which tuner is used for the EIT extraction. Most likely though it would be the channel being watched live (wrong region in this case).

Could it be that if each tuner is tuned to different regions the priority is given to the tuner with the channel with the lowest number (for example channel 1 gets priority over channel 800). When using autoscan and multiple regions are detected the box asks which region you are in and this region is allocated to the lowest channel. Other (duplicate) channels are allocated higher numbers.

On a HDR with the redring package I was recording two programs. The box starts up on a channel in region 2 (806) - (settings/preferences/time/poweron-timer once daily as distinct from poweron-channel package). 2 programs were recorded simultaneously from two regions (channel 71 region 1 and channel 806 region 2). Channel 71 program finished first and the next program in the series was scheduled automatically. The channel 806 program finished recording 15 minutes later and it did not update schedule immediately.

Incidentally when both regions programs were being recorded the webif EPG cgi-bin/xepg.jim was that of the channel with the lower number (71) with the yellow line indicating the current time. After channel 71 finished recording the webif EPG reverted to the EPG of channel 806 (region 2). Throughout this the EPG on the box was displaying that of region 2 / channel 806.

On another machine (with no redring package) the webif (/epg.shtml) stayed on the region 2 which was loaded when the box booted. On that box I recorded channel 801(region 2) from 730pm to 1050pm and channel 5 (region 1) from 9pm-10pm. The series link on the program 5 was updated when the channel finished. The next installment on the series on 801 may not be for 2 weeks so in not in any EPG yet so I cant say if it would have updated automatically when it finished recording.

Or to simplify this when 2 channels are being recorded :
If channel(decoder1) < channel(decoder2) then EPG(humax) = EIT(decoder1) else
EPG(humax) = EIT(decoder2)

or when 2 channels are being recorded :
If channel(decoder1) < channel(decoder2) then RST(humax) = RST(decoder1) else
RST(humax) = RST(decoder2)


If only one channel is being viewed or decoded or the box has just started up then perhaps the box takes the EPG and time stamps from the (single) active decoder.
 
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