Stuck at START SYSTEM even with no hard disc

[Owen Smith]

My newest and least used HDR Fox T2 now gets stuck at START SYSTEM on the display. I have disconnected the hard disc data and power cables but the problem remains so it isn't the capacitor like I thought. Is there anything I can check or is it just a case of getting my spare out of the loft and hoping it works?

 

[Owen Smith]

I've checked the power supply outputs with a multimeter and they all measure as expected based on what is printed on the power supply PCB next to the connector. 5.8V measures as about 6.4V and 12V measures about 12.3V. Feels like a main board issue, is there anything I can check there?

 

[Owen Smith]

Recordings on the hard disc aren't a concern by the way. I have them all auto decrypting so they should be usable with another main board, and if not it's only telly and I have an Apple TV 4K for catchup. I prefer to use the HDR Fox T2 because I get 5.1 sound on some BBC and C4 programmes whereas their catchup services are only stereo, and I can skip adverts on commercial services.

 

[Owen Smith]

The large 16V capacitor closest to the 4R7 inductor in the photo below only has 0.89V across it, that feels unlikely for a 16V part. The cpu heatsink gets hot so the cpu is powered.

 

[Black Hole]

is it just a case of getting my spare out of the loft and hoping it works?

Yes, at least in the short to medium term. Attempts to resurrect the failed unit will be a long and detailed process of "knife-and-forking"*, unless by some miracle a firmware reload or system flush restores it, but I see you've started. Best of luck, results will be useful.

Consider that E²PROM (or whatever the particular firmware storage technology might be called) typically only has a data retention time specification of 10 years. The clock might get reset every time we update the firmware, but I doubt that includes the boot loader, and probably not the firmware updater either.

The large 16V capacitor closest to the 4R7 inductor in the photo below only has 0.89V across it, that feels unlikely for a 16V part.

We know that some sections only get powered up under firmware control. This might be one of them. You'll need to trace the circuit in that area and figure out what it's actually supposed to do, and whether the inputs to that section are operating correctly. Alternatively measure the ESR and leakage of that capacitor, or just replace all electrolytics in hope.

I don't want to discourage you, we will all benefit from any information you manage to uncover, but as you've got a spare one...

* That was the colloquial term we used in my era, at my place of work, for debugging on the test bench.

 

[Owen Smith]

Yes, at least in the short to medium term. Attempts to resurrect the failed unit will be a long and detailed process of "knife-and-forking"*, unless by some miracle a firmware reload or system flush restores it, but I see you've started. Best of luck, results will be useful.

It doesn't boot sufficiently to either flush or reload firmware. Or at least I assume it doesn't since it is on "START SYSTEM".

Consider that E²PROM (or whatever the particular firmware storage technology might be called) typically only has a data retention time specification of 10 years. The clock might get reset every time we update the firmware, but I doubt that includes the boot loader, and probably not the firmware updater either.

The firmware is stored in Flash on the HDR Fox T2, as it is in almost everything these days. E2PROM is largely obsolete and generally is used for saving settings on the rare device that still has it.

We know that some sections only get powered up under firmware control. This might be one of them. You'll need to trace the circuit in that area and figure out what it's actually supposed to do, and whether the inputs to that section are operating correctly. Alternatively measure the ESR and leakage of that capacitor, or just replace all electrolytics in hope.

That's beyond my knowledge of electronics I'm afraid. I'm capable of following instructions to repair known faults and I was hoping this might already be known, like the hard disc startup capacitor.

I don't want to discourage you, we will all benefit from any information you manage to uncover, but as you've got a spare one...

I have a second spare at my parents that has already had its hard disc pinched to replace my parents. Their hard disc was arguably faulty from new, it was always trouble and as soon as I installed custom firmware I found it had dozens of bad sectors at only a couple of years old. It was a constant effort every 6 months or so to clean that disc. Finally it locked up on my parents and while I was able to run disc fix on it I didn't want it locking up on them again and I swapped the disc.

 

[Black Hole]

It doesn't boot sufficiently to either flush or reload firmware. Or at least I assume it doesn't

Assume? I did say "by some miracle", but until you conduct the experiment you don't know for sure.

I was hoping this might already be known, like the hard disc startup capacitor.

Nope.

The firmware is stored in Flash on the HDR Fox T2, as it is in almost everything these days. E2PROM is largely obsolete and generally is used for saving settings on the rare device that still has it.

Would that be NOR or NAND Flash? A trivial point. But I thought you said...

That's beyond my knowledge of electronics I'm afraid.

 

[Owen Smith]

Would that be NOR or NAND Flash? A trivial point. But I thought you said...

Not sure. I'd expect NAND since it's running embedded Linux, but it's not certain. I'd have to lookup the chips online.

 

[Owen Smith]

I have some dates. The failed HDR Fox T2 was a Grade A bought from Humax in 2012. Meanwhile the brand new one I bought from John Lewis in 2008 some 17 years ago and I use more is still working fine. Both are still on the original hard discs. The display on the one still working is rather dim, I might swap it for the display on the one that has failed.

 

[RobH1]

The release date for the HDR Fox T2 is here

 

[Owen Smith]

I must have been more tired than I thought last night. Re-checking the receipts, the oldest one from John Lewis is from November 2010 and the Grade A from Humax was bought in 2014. These dates match your release date article.

 

[ColinOfRame]

I have some dates. The failed HDR Fox T2 was a Grade A bought from Humax in 2012. Meanwhile the brand new one I bought from John Lewis in 2008 some 17 years ago and I use more is still working fine. Both are still on the original hard discs. The display on the one still working is rather dim, I might swap it for the display on the one that has failed.

When I upgraded my hard disk yonks ago, I removed the orange filter that covered the display. The display was then very readable compared to before.

 

[RobH1]

When I upgraded my hard disk yonks ago, I removed the orange filter that covered the display. The display was then very readable compared to before.

New member eh? Most old hands did that not long after the Fox came on to the market.

 

[Owen Smith]

When I upgraded my hard disk yonks ago, I removed the orange filter that covered the display. The display was then very readable compared to before.

The orange filter has been off for so long I can't remember when I did it. The display on my oldest and most used box is now unreadable in standby and barely readable when in use even in a darkened room.

 

[Owen Smith]

Finally got my spare HDR Fox T2 out of the loft and swapped the hard disc from the failed box. It seems I never used this one originally, I had to remove the orange filter from the display and run the wizard on power on. Damn the display and LED ring is bright, I've used Redring package to turn both down. It's a vertical tuners box, the only one I own which probably explains why I never used it. Signal strengths report 5 to 10% lower on all muxes than the old box and pre DSO around here that would likely have been unreceivable and was reported by others with vertical tuners back then. These days it's irrelevant. CF installed easily from my regular USB stick used for this purpose. Recordings from the old box are all playable as I have auto decrypt set.

Oh yes, the purple LED when dual recording is actually purple! I'd almost forgotten what that looked like. It seems the blue LED on these boxes goes dim with age far more than the other LED colours, possibly because blue needs a higher voltage.

Only problem is the RS server doesn't know the box's region, despite leaving it active all night.

 

[Owen Smith]

The orange filter has been off for so long I can't remember when I did it. The display on my oldest and most used box is now unreadable in standby and barely readable when in use even in a darkened room.

I swapped the front panel from my failed box onto my oldest and most used box. It's a lot more readable.

One thing I noticed setting brightnesses with Redring is that the settings in Standby don't work, and I do have power saving in standby disabled.

 

[Owen Smith]

Only problem is the RS server doesn't know the box's region, despite leaving it active all night.

Note when I tuned this HDR Fox T2 (and it's never been tuned before) I did it as a manual tune of specific UHF channels. I see multiple transmitters round here sometimes and the result is always a mess so I always manual tune now. However my other boxes will have been auto tuned at some stage and that may have set a region. Perhaps I need to auto tune this one so I can set a region and then delete all the channels and manual tune it?

 

[Black Hole]

My boxes are all shown as Wales on RS, but I've never chosen that. I think it's picking the area of the first mux in the tuned list.

 

[prpr]

I think it's picking the area of the first mux in the tuned list.

It appears to be doing that, yes. This is not necessarily the correct thing to do (IMHO) and not what Tunefix does for example.

Perhaps I need to auto tune this one so I can set a region and then delete all the channels and manual tune it?

That won't achieve anything that manual tuning won't do in the first place.
You need to check the tuning database really, but you can get an idea of what's set from the Diagnostics page's Mux Info icon.

 

[Owen Smith]

I did a full automatic tune and selected Cambs & Beds which is my region (one out of region mux was seen), and then left the box on for a few hours to sync to RS. Nothing doing, and I know it synced because RS saw all the schedule entries disappear on the retune and then it saw them come back when I restored a schedule backup.

What finally fixed it was after the above then delete the box from RS, and add it back to RS. This caused the region to appear immediately in RS so it seems it is only set on first subscribing a box to RS. Also it doesn't come from the first mux, I had muxes tuned when I initially subscribed this new box and they said Cambs & Beds. RS is extracting the region chosen on a full automatic tune, in my case selected manually. Boxes that only see one region probably set the same thing automatically. I wonder where that setting is stored in the Humax?