Assume v. Presume

[Trev]

Just as a matter of interest, are we being pedantic about the use of possessive apostrophes or the use of a full stop to terminate an abbreviation? My original pedantry was the lack of consistency between title/heading/ stuff on a single page of a BBC report. Do they no longer train their copy/title/sub-title writers in the use of the English language as she are spoke in England?
A little research in the OElD and elsewhere indicates that whether there is an apostrophe s at the end of a word ending in s depends on the pronunciation and/or the official name of the establishment. The official name of the hospital in question is 'St Thomas' Hospital'. However, this is contrary to what the OElD says "With personal names that end in -s: add an apostrophe plus s when you would naturally pronounce an extra s if you said the word out loud:" The OElD actually gives 'St Thomas' Hospital' as an exception.
Also, neither the OElD example or the official name of that establishment have a full stop after 'St'.
The use of a full stop after abbreviations is rather vague in the OElD, and seems to have no hard and fast rules.

 

[EEPhil]

The use of a full stop after abbreviations is rather vague in the OElD, and seems to have no hard and fast rules.

I've a feeling this is another case of déjà vu or even déjà vécu.
I'm not very consistent with this one myself. St, Mr, Dr, Mrs etc. no problem. But e.g. or eg. or just eg? i.e., ie. or ie? I'm not sure I use the same version each time! (I may even have used etc rather than etc.)

 

[EEPhil]

There is a street in Nottingham known by various names - is it: St. James's Street, St James' Street, St James Street, or any other combination of stop, apostrophe and 's'? Nottingham City Council name it as St James's Street on their website, which looks right.

 

[Trev]

But where is it "known by various names"? Following the OElD, St James's is correct as you pronounce the second 's' (that's plus/minus the full stop after St).

 

[EEPhil]

The map says St James's Street. The ncp car park and various shops are on St James Street. The Lloyds Bank is on St. James's Street. St James' Street on the caption of a photo. I can't remember what is written on the street sign.

 

[Black Hole]

There is no consistency in street signage, and it is only consistency that creates a standard by precedent. The village of Llantrisant near here (not the location of the Royal Mint) can't even be sure of its own spelling on the 'welcome to' sign boards at each end of the road - specifically how many esses there should be.

Regarding abbreviating dots, I dropped them long ago but the generation older than me insists on them. Where used, the dot always comes at the end regardless of where the letters are missing - hence Dr. and St.. The latter is an example of why I have dropped them (visually confusing when indistinguishable from a full stop). Another reason for dropping them is the clumsy spacing in initialisms, especially pronounceable ones such as RADAR. What I tend to do here is omit the dots provided there is another visual clue that it is an initialism, such as capitals - I had an example recently where the whole text was in capitals, so I had to put the dots back in to make it clear that one 'word' was an initialism. "EG" and "IE" are contractions of Latin phrases, so "E.G." would be correct, and following the above I ought to use capitals "EG" or "IE", but they commonly appear as "e.g." and "i.e." and that is the only way the spell checkers are happy. However, they are also commonly understood and not confuseable, so stylistically I use "eg" and "ie" (minimising the space on the page). What I have said before is that the most important thing, editorially, is consistency within the body of work - this sets its own standard.

Abbreviating apostrophes work differently. In those cases the apostrophe replaces one or more letter in place, when the pronunciation drops those letters or the complete word is to be taken as read but there is insufficient space on the sign, but are not to be used where the result is the same as a possessive. M'am. So'ton.

 

[Deleted member 473]

I would use B. Hole and Mr Hole. I believe that is the printing convention here. You need to make sure the space after the stop is not an end of sentence space, too. No idea what Wurd does, but TeX used to require typing

B.\ Hole

or a tilde so the name wasn't split.

 

[gomezz]

There is a small road on the poet's estate in Bicester. Look on the map its says Spenser Close (correct) but on the street sign it says Spencer Close (incorrect). There may well be a lesser poet named Spencer but not I think someone who would get a road named after them alongside the luminaries of Browning, Burns etc.

(just checked Google Earth and interestingly the street sign is blurred out)

 

[Trev]

Probably thought it was a number plate

 

[EEPhil]

There is a new estate near to me that has a road called Stavely Way. Just next to the road sign is an electrical substation telling everyone it is on Staveley Way. (Given that most of the roads are named after places in the Lake District, the street sign is probably wrong)

What I have said before is that the most important thing, editorially, is consistency within the body of work - this sets its own standard.

Whenever I write anything I try to be consistent - within the body of work (report, paper or thesis). However, I am consistently inconsistent in observing the same standard in the next piece of work. I am probably guilty of using eg. and eg, or ie. and ie somewhere in these forums.

I would use B. Hole and Mr Hole.

I thought I had a preference for B Hole, but on checking various papers I find I mainly use B. Hole (but not consistently). That probably makes me an A Hole.

 

[Black Hole]

I believe that is the printing convention here.

Printing "conventions" are defined by editors and house style.

I would use B. Hole and Mr Hole.

I prefer to omit the space: "B.Hole". The dot is an indicator that the "B" is an abbreviation, and itself implies end-of-word. J.R.Hartley

I am not saying that's the right way, or even that there is a right way. That's just my way.

 

[Trev]

A full stop is always followed by a space, period.
'End of a word' analogy is silly. A word always ends with a space.

 

[Deleted member 473]

Oh dear, A.N.Other is clumsy and ugly! I have also seen A.N. Other and many variations with a title, too. A.Marr is no more correct than AndrewMarr. Always a non breakable space between A. and Marr.

I also hate sentences that bump into one another.These do that.It looks slovenly.

 

[Deleted member 473]

Talking of place names, where, if anywhere, do you think the rules for pronouncing them are kept? Quite near to where I live is Soughley Lane. I haven't a clue how to say it, nor do I know if it is consistently pronounced. Soggy, Soogly? Sley? Suffly?

 

[Trev]

How about 'Sowlee' as in Slough?

 

[Black Hole]

A full stop is always followed by a space, period.

Full stops only occur at the end of a sentence.

Dots in abbreviations are not full stops, and imply a space: R.A.D.A.R. or R. A. D. A. R.? To follow your logic the latter would be preferred, otherwise J.R.R.Tolkein is as correct as N.A.S.A.. Do you use e. g. instead of e.g. or eg? I doubt it, which contradicts your own argument.

Incidentally, I require a longer space after a full stop, which generally means a double space.

 

[Trev]

OK. You win, but double space after a full stop is old hat and not used in modern stuff. I give in. as there is no emoticon for roll over with legs in the air.

 

[Deleted member 473]

OK. You win, but double space after a full stop is old hat and not used in modern stuff. I give in. as there is no emoticon for roll over with legs in the air.

Double spacing is a typing convention. Print is different. Few of us use typewriters any more. The same for underlining, print has two kinds of emphasis, and also fonts for headlines.

 

[Black Hole]

That's bollox. There's no difference between typing and print except the limitations. To generate a wider space after a sentence in a medium where there is sufficient flexibility to insert a wider space, that's what you do. On a typewriter the only way to insert a wider space is to type two spaces.

The reason a single, ordinary, space is seen so often these days is because so many people pick up a keyboard without the knowledge that there should be a wider space after a sentence - it's not arbitrary, it is there for easy visual scanning. HTML has a limitation that it automatically converts white space to a single space, so people get used to seeing it that way... but that doesn't make it right (like in these bloody forum posts - my text contains double spaces, even when re-opened to edit).

Word processors that pick up a double space as an error don't help, and I have yet to find a way to generate a wider breaking space in OpenOffice.

 

[Deleted member 473]

Actually, in printing, at least in left and right justified printing, the spaces are all flexible, and the end of sentence space is slightly larger, but still flexible. It may in fact be of zero width if at the end of a line.

We all know HTML is an inferior tool, originally designed to be simple, a dumbed down XML. Word processors, too, are not up to much when it comes to spacing. I despaired when I had sometimes to edit colleagues' Wurd files, turned on special character view, and saw a mess of pseudo formatting and accidentally repeated spaces.

TeX had all you needed for formatting ready to go to the printer, but I no longer need or use it.

So, the choices seem to be:

1. Type as though using a typewriter, and use double spaces and underlines.
2. Type ready for printing, using a typesetting tool such as TeX, LaTeX, AMSTeX, etc, and use the full gamut of tools printers use.
3. Type for the web and use single spaced sentences, font variants for emphasis (but not underline) and font sizing for headings.

Most of us now vote with their feet for option 3, apart from technical scientists who must use option 2 because the others cannot manage technical writing.