EV chat

It's a real shame that bullet missed (not that I usually condone such stuff, but in this case I think it's justified).
it beggars belief that the tangerine tw@ is still able to steal oxygen.
I had anticipated assassination attempts, that there has been only one indicates the amount of security in place.

Nonetheless, in my view this is the way we are all going, as the world over-population starts having to fight for resources. Russia is doing it, USA has got in on the act, China has been doing it for years (a bit more subtly), GB (and Holland, and Spain, and Portugal) did it centuries ago and then went all woke. Germany tried it but bumped up agains the rest.
 
Picking up on some of the earlier points about EVs and seemingly intractable problems (as defined by the Daily Mail and the like)...
Our Ford Focus became unreliable and getting expensive for fixes in 2021. It had done well, it was from 1999, but its time was up. We ummed & ahhed about whether to stick with petrol or go electric. Things were still a bit new. Obliviously there are some drivers who would say "I've been in an EV since 2010 ...and it's fine", but they were always people with driveways, charging at home.
We live in a terrace - the problem!
We live in a west-London borough - part of the solution.
Charging has got a lot better between when we bought our Kia in 2021 and today.
Chargers in street lights won't work as you would need a street light for every parking sized bay in the street - it would turn night in to day I suppose!
Not at all true. Our car does over 250 miles from a full battery. Think how infrequently you need to "fill up". I put it on charge about 3-4 times in a month. The UK average annual mileage is reported at around 7000 miles, that's about 580 miles per month - or 2-3 charges. My street is about 80 houses. If every home had an EV they would need ~190 charging sessions in a month, that would be 6 per day. Six chargers should handle that even if everyone wants to charge at the same cheaper time (overnight) and not fit a few charge sessions in during the day.
We don't have 6 chargers in our street - we have 4. Obviously the EV proportion isn't that great yet.

The original lamp post sockets were done a bit stupidly. The council website had asked for requests from users and they considered where to install them, often on a lamp near that person's home. Predictably it was difficult to park in the right place to get a charge outside people's homes. They've learned, now they think about positions near the end of streets, were nobody's house faces that part of the street, nobody thinks that's "my" spot! Often they pick the end of the street, where there is the side of house which faces the adjoining street. Sometimes they site them on bit of road which connects between terraced streets. These are the places where people don't tend to park, yet they are often no more than 2-5 minutes away. My neighbour drives an electric black cab. He charges over the pavement and uses some yellow and black striped ducting. When we got the car the chargers were rare and only on lamp posts. The rapid expansion of public slow chargers has been on some more lamp posts and dedicated charging pillars.
I liked the idea of the lamp post charging. They don't add any new clutter of "street furniture", but you have to remote-control them from an app because there's just a socket and a tri-colour LED to show state. There's no screen, no contactless no overheads! There's a QR code so you can scan for the right address, but the app can use your location anyway. It seems a neat low ovearhead piece of tech, a little slower at 5kW instead of 7kW, but it is using the surplus capacity of the street lamps' power circuits. The advantage of dedicated charging pillars is that they can be located more freely to match ends of street where people aren't parking. The pillars usually are higher tech, with RFID card readers and displays, but obviously that means more capatal cost.

So we have gone from 2 lamp posts which were in streets 15 minutes away (in 2021), to a situation today with 4 in our street and a further 2 in each of the short link roads between our road and the parallel road. Originally the parking by the lamp posts was unreserved, so it could be difficult, but they made those spots for charging only. The parallel street has a couple of lamp posts with charging on them, but most of that street is bigger houses with private parking out front - so they tend to do their own cheaper charging at home.

People who charge at home are already using electricity at off-peak rates because there is an abundance of power then. EVs are actually not the problem to the grid that deniers try to make out - quite the reverse, they are a solution to the problem that the grid and generators have to deal with a very uneven load between minimum overnight and a peak around 17:00-19:00. EV owners can pick their time of charging and even the day. Sometimes, like this weekend, there is a lot of wind and the price falls, at other times there might be low wind and cold weather and the price is high because it requires more expensive fuels and power stations to run-up to meet the demand. EV owners can choose to top up on low price dates/times and run the car lower on any run of expensive days.

Lots of people don't see the electricity price fluctuations because they are on "fixes". I chose a tarrif from Octopus which is called "Tracker" - each day is different, depending on demand and what the supply-side costs are. Yesterday electricity was 22.39p/kWh, today it is 17.38 and tomorrow's figure is 15.24p (the price for tomorrow comes out around midday..... so I'll not do the laundry today, because I can see that tomorrow the cost and tumbling will be cheaper!
If I could charge at home I would pick my days. Yes I could save miney by charging at home, but there's the installation cost. Right now I can charge off-peak on public chargers for 43p/kWh. A full tank would cost £27.52 and take me 270 miles - That's about 10p per mile.
I'll settle for that vs. petrol prices for the enjoyability of driving electric !

Bringing it back to the "impossibility" of an EV without home charging... Some of the early adopters of EVs have propagated this bit of FUD... they were the people who bought early, with cars which had a range of around 100 miles and they could of course charge at home and had to regularly, possibly plugging in habitually for an overnight charge. For me, I have a car which can get me from home in west London to Devon regularly, without stopping. I arrive with ~50 miles or more of range left, so I am likely to fill up within a few days, but not urgently. Because I always have to use public chargers I don't really have any issues with tapping to pay or using an app. Sometimes I leave home with less than 100% and use a rapid charger on the way. I used to stop and use a Tesla charger (I don't own a Tesla) at the mid-point of my frequent long journey. That Tesla rapid charger used to be nealy the same price as slow street charging, but after Elon Musk went total tw@t I avoid! Filling up whilst stopping for evening snack and coffee meant tha tI reached Devon with enough left that I didn't need more juice untl before the return.

In Devon I experience what is probably true for a lot of the country, the councils have not yet worked with charge point operators to get public charging installed for their residents. There tend to be "rapid" chargers in strategic places, but not the back streets where you find terraced housing or flats. Sadly I bet many councils will repeat the mistakes that London boroughs were making in 2021, before getting it right :-(
In Devon I can get an overnight charge at similar price to home, if I walk 25 minutes. If it rains I can use the more expensive "rapid" chargers 5 minutes away in a car park (free parking overnight or if charging).

Sorry for the long post - I wanted to put to bed the ideas that
a) There will never be enough places to charge in domestic streets
b) The grid will be overwhelmed by the load of EVs (when in fact they are a useful distributed storage for power when it is abundant and not charging when the power is short/expensive)
and finally:
c) My car weighs 1757 kg vs. BMW X4 2200-2500; LR Discovery 2200+ (unladen weights - the sort that tends to be parked in multi-storey car parks and DOES NOT present a weight risk!)
 
Last edited:
No, but what has that got to do with the hysteria about the weight of "EVs" in multi-storey car parks?
If there's a weight problem for car parks then you would expect a limit on the weight of cars, any cars.
(Forum tells me I'm not allowed to cross-post external links (yet) when I try to do a reply, rather than another post)
 
I am wondering if the argument is that, like for like, EVs are heavier than the ICE counterparts. A legitimate response I guess is, was there such clamour when cars became unnecessarily heavier by adopting the SUV trend.
 
c) My car weighs 1757 kg vs. BMW X4 2200-2500; LR Discovery 2200+ (unladen weights - the sort that tends to be parked in multi-storey car parks and DOES NOT present a weight ris

If you are making a comparison that has any credibility then make it like for like. Compare the EV BMWiX3 to the petrol versions in the link below and most are at least 400kg lighter. The fact is that EV cars weigh more than their petrol or diesel versions and old multi-storey car parks may not be designed to take the extra weight of a level full of EV cars many of which would not be at the bottom of the EV weight list like yours.



1775231811198.png
 
You see the FUD argument never bothers to set context. Yes it is true that like for like class is heavier for EVs.
I don't recall the click-bait press bothering much to have a go at car size bloat, yet it results in additional weight on roads, in car parks. It creates access difficulties and ding dangers in both ground level car parks and multi-storeys.
The anti-EV FUD doesn't bother with context or accuracy, it goes for simplistic concepts.
Arguing against anti-EV FUD is a lot like arguing against Brexit. Simple emotive slogans which need a whole lot of wider context to debunk. The counter argument looks complex and people disregard it. When defence is mounted there's a lot of "whataboutery" - like whatabout comparing like for like....
Now, how about acknowledging that in 2026 there are a lot of heavier cars around than when many car parks were built. If there's really a problem with car weights, then talk about car weights, not pin the problem on EVs
 
Last edited:
You see the FUD argument never bothers to set context. Yes it is true that like for like class is heavier for EVs.
I don't recall the click-bait press bothering much to have a go at car size bloat, yet it results in additional weight on roads, in car parks. It creates access difficulties and ding dangers in both ground level car parks and multi-storeys.
The anti-EV FUD doesn't bother with context or accuracy, it goes for simplistic concepts.
Arguing against anti-EV FUD is a lot like arguing against Brexit. Simple emotive slogans which need a whole lot of wider context to debunk. The counter argument looks complex and people disregard it. When defence is mounted there's a lot of "whataboutery" - like whatabout comparing like for like....
Now, how about acknowledging that in 2026 there are a lot of heavier cars around when many car parks were built. If there's really a problem with car weights, then talk about car weights, not pin the problem on EVs
Try reading instead of ranting it may teach you something. It is an issue with extra weight and if petrol or diesel cars are getting heavier then their EV versions will be even heavier. The car parks could not give a toss what propels your car as long as they get your money without potential damage being caused to their structure. It is more eco friendly to have 8 people in a car than use 2 cars but would you do that in your Kia if it could cause damage to your car?
 
Our car does over 250 miles from a full battery. Think how infrequently you need to "fill up".
Twice a week, if it really has that range, and probably more because the "empty" will occur at an inconvenient place otherwise. Does yours really do 250 miles between charges, or was that only when it was new and the wind was behind you?

Also, I couldn't possibly afford the depreciation on an EV, let alone an EV with a realistic 250-mile range (which would be my minimum) and kept that range over 6 years.

EVs use lithium battery technology, and so does my iPad. The iPad I bought in 2016 is now unusable unless on external power. The Focus I bought in 2012 (as a 6 year old) now has nearly 400k miles on it and still gets me 400 miles between fills, and a fill takes 5 minutes and I don't have to plan my journey to accommodate my tank being empty.

A car park I frequent has fenced off a significant number of parking bays so it doesn't collapse under the weight of EVs.
 
Try reading instead of ranting it may teach you something. It is an issue with extra weight and if petrol or diesel cars are getting heavier then their EV versions will be even heavier. The car parks could not give a toss what propels your car as long as they get your money without potential damage being caused to their structure. It is more eco friendly to have 8 people in a car than use 2 cars but would you do that in your Kia if it could cause damage to your car?
I had a wee look. I could not find non-hybrids, but a Mercedes C-300 weighs 1,798 kg; a GLC-300 1,957 kg (+159 kg). Not sure it's like for like, as one is 2WD, the other 4WD. The electric EQB (there is no C, but similar length) is 2,156 kg (+199 kg on the GLC).

However, an older C-300 petrol weighed 1,555 kg, the C-300e (hybrid) 1,815 (+260 kg) and the GLC-250 petrol 1,735 kg (+180 kg on the C-petrol).

And just like that, between the transition from cars to electrified tractors we went up 2,156-1,555=601 kg in ca 10 years. Well done us.

Edit: I could have done better, all data from one source, more models etc, but I am not sure we would see more difference. And maybe there are stats that people stopped buying cars and most;y buy tractors these days, or that electric small cars do not exist, so the problem is exacerbated; dunno.
 
Picking up on some of the earlier points about EVs and seemingly intractable problems (as defined by the Daily Mail and the like)...
Our Ford Focus became unreliable and getting expensive for fixes in 2021. It had done well, it was from 1999, but its time was up. We ummed & ahhed about whether to stick with petrol or go electric. Things were still a bit new. Obliviously there are some drivers who would say "I've been in an EV since 2010 ...and it's fine", but they were always people with driveways, charging at home.
We live in a terrace - the problem!
We live in a west-London borough - part of the solution.
Charging has got a lot better between when we bought our Kia in 2021 and today.

Not at all true. Our car does over 250 miles from a full battery. Think how infrequently you need to "fill up". I put it on charge about 3-4 times in a month. The UK average annual mileage is reported at around 7000 miles, that's about 580 miles per month - or 2-3 charges. My street is about 80 houses. If every home had an EV they would need ~190 charging sessions in a month, that would be 6 per day. Six chargers should handle that even if everyone wants to charge at the same cheaper time (overnight) and not fit a few charge sessions in during the day.
We don't have 6 chargers in our street - we have 4. Obviously the EV proportion isn't that great yet.

The original lamp post sockets were done a bit stupidly. The council website had asked for requests from users and they considered where to install them, often on a lamp near that person's home. Predictably it was difficult to park in the right place to get a charge outside people's homes. They've learned, now they think about positions near the end of streets, were nobody's house faces that part of the street, nobody thinks that's "my" spot! Often they pick the end of the street, where there is the side of house which faces the adjoining street. Sometimes they site them on bit of road which connects between terraced streets. These are the places where people don't tend to park, yet they are often no more than 2-5 minutes away. My neighbour drives an electric black cab. He charges over the pavement and uses some yellow and black striped ducting. When we got the car the chargers were rare and only on lamp posts. The rapid expansion of public slow chargers has been on some more lamp posts and dedicated charging pillars.
I liked the idea of the lamp post charging. They don't add any new clutter of "street furniture", but you have to remote-control them from an app because there's just a socket and a tri-colour LED to show state. There's no screen, no contactless no overheads! There's a QR code so you can scan for the right address, but the app can use your location anyway. It seems a neat low ovearhead piece of tech, a little slower at 5kW instead of 7kW, but it is using the surplus capacity of the street lamps' power circuits. The advantage of dedicated charging pillars is that they can be located more freely to match ends of street where people aren't parking. The pillars usually are higher tech, with RFID card readers and displays, but obviously that means more capatal cost.

So we have gone from 2 lamp posts which were in streets 15 minutes away (in 2021), to a situation today with 4 in our street and a further 2 in each of the short link roads between our road and the parallel road. Originally the parking by the lamp posts was unreserved, so it could be difficult, but they made those spots for charging only. The parallel street has a couple of lamp posts with charging on them, but most of that street is bigger houses with private parking out front - so they tend to do their own cheaper charging at home.

People who charge at home are already using electricity at off-peak rates because there is an abundance of power then. EVs are actually not the problem to the grid that deniers try to make out - quite the reverse, they are a solution to the problem that the grid and generators have to deal with a very uneven load between minimum overnight and a peak around 17:00-19:00. EV owners can pick their time of charging and even the day. Sometimes, like this weekend, there is a lot of wind and the price falls, at other times there might be low wind and cold weather and the price is high because it requires more expensive fuels and power stations to run-up to meet the demand. EV owners can choose to top up on low price dates/times and run the car lower on any run of expensive days.

Lots of people don't see the electricity price fluctuations because they are on "fixes". I chose a tarrif from Octopus which is called "Tracker" - each day is different, depending on demand and what the supply-side costs are. Yesterday electricity was 22.39p/kWh, today it is 17.38 and tomorrow's figure is 15.24p (the price for tomorrow comes out around midday..... so I'll not do the laundry today, because I can see that tomorrow the cost and tumbling will be cheaper!
If I could charge at home I would pick my days. Yes I could save miney by charging at home, but there's the installation cost. Right now I can charge off-peak on public chargers for 43p/kWh. A full tank would cost £27.52 and take me 270 miles - That's about 10p per mile.
I'll settle for that vs. petrol prices for the enjoyability of driving electric !

Bringing it back to the "impossibility" of an EV without home charging... Some of the early adopters of EVs have propagated this bit of FUD... they were the people who bought early, with cars which had a range of around 100 miles and they could of course charge at home and had to regularly, possibly plugging in habitually for an overnight charge. For me, I have a car which can get me from home in west London to Devon regularly, without stopping. I arrive with ~50 miles or more of range left, so I am likely to fill up within a few days, but not urgently. Because I always have to use public chargers I don't really have any issues with tapping to pay or using an app. Sometimes I leave home with less than 100% and use a rapid charger on the way. I used to stop and use a Tesla charger (I don't own a Tesla) at the mid-point of my frequent long journey. That Tesla rapid charger used to be nealy the same price as slow street charging, but after Elon Musk went total tw@t I avoid! Filling up whilst stopping for evening snack and coffee meant tha tI reached Devon with enough left that I didn't need more juice untl before the return.

In Devon I experience what is probably true for a lot of the country, the councils have not yet worked with charge point operators to get public charging installed for their residents. There tend to be "rapid" chargers in strategic places, but not the back streets where you find terraced housing or flats. Sadly I bet many councils will repeat the mistakes that London boroughs were making in 2021, before getting it right :-(
In Devon I can get an overnight charge at similar price to home, if I walk 25 minutes. If it rains I can use the more expensive "rapid" chargers 5 minutes away in a car park (free parking overnight or if charging).

Sorry for the long post - I wanted to put to bed the ideas that
a) There will never be enough places to charge in domestic streets
b) The grid will be overwhelmed by the load of EVs (when in fact they are a useful distributed storage for power when it is abundant and not charging when the power is short/expensive)
and finally:
c) My car weighs 1757 kg vs. BMW X4 2200-2500; LR Discovery 2200+ (unladen weights - the sort that tends to be parked in multi-storey car parks and DOES NOT present a weight risk!)

It obviously works for you so I wish you well with your EV and the multiple possibilities of charging it at various prices.

It all sounds hugely complicated to me so I don't think I will bother until legislation (misguided in my opinion) forces me to go that route. I would far rather just pop in to a filling station and top up my tank in probably less than 5 minutes - not even a problem if I forgot I was running low yesterday and I suddenly have to make an urgent unplanned trip. By comparison you would have to find a rapid charger that is available and working, probably at a far greater cost than normal and still take many multiples of my 5 min readiness!

There is also some serious doubt as to the whole life cost to the environment of EV vehicles versus ICE vehicles, which seems to be disregarded by the powers that be. So whilst you may feel quite smug with your zero emissions at point of use that is nowhere near the whole story! Then there is the cost and upheaval of updating the distribution network - for example a very popular holiday park in my area tried to prepare for the future by requesting the installation of six charging points with the supply provided by Western Power Distribution - their answer - we might manage to provide two from the current network! Obviously such updates to the distribution networks involve costs which, no doubt, will be paid for by all customers of the network and NOT just EV owners - think Smart meters, Green levy, Renewables, Wind Power etc. etc. - we have been paying for these without necessarily being told about it or the extra additional cost to our bills it involves!

I am not necessarily opposed to EVs, they have their uses and work for some but I think it will be a disastrous failure at huge cost to the country, damage to the car making industry from inevitable influx of Chinese vehicles (starting already) when, I believe, the realisation sets in some time in the 2030s (or earlier, hopefully to lessen the impact) that it is just not viable that we are all required to use EV vehicles. What a U turn that will be!

We had Diesel-gate, welcome to EV-gate, coming soon!
 
It obviously works for you so I wish you well with your EV and the multiple possibilities of charging it at various prices.
The blinkered bubble attitude of those who think London (or come to that any other major metropolis) is the Centre of the Universe. We need politicians who have real-world experience and from a broad spectrum of backgrounds rather than the hot-housed elite we're stuck with, and coping on realistic salaries without expenses claims to buffer them from every financial impact they impose on us.

We had Diesel-gate
...which makes used diesels very good value...
 
Last edited:
Diesels were always a bad idea for passenger cars, the diesel particulate issue much predates dieselgate. Their maintenance is also more expensive, do people do the miles to make it worth it?
Well that's sort of the whole point - especially the comment just above yours by @Black Hole - going back a while we were ALL encouraged, by the governing uninformed, that we should be driving Diesels - and that seriously backfired (the policies not the engines 😁)

We may well get the same effect when the actual ramifications of everyone using/charging EV vehicles becomes a realisation!
 
Diesels were always a bad idea for passenger cars, the diesel particulate issue much predates dieselgate. Their maintenance is also more expensive, do people do the miles to make it worth it?
As a cyclist I know when I'm cycling behind a diesel from the exhaust smell, it's disgusting stuff. It's a huge shame that diesels were ever put into passenger cars.
 
Well that's sort of the whole point - especially the comment just above yours by @Black Hole - going back a while we were ALL encouraged, by the governing uninformed, that we should be driving Diesels - and that seriously backfired
The civil servants knew about the particulates and other problematic exhaust emissions from diesels and included that in their assessment to ministers. But the government at the time chose to ignore that and focus only on CO2 emissions. This all came out a few years ago when ex government ministers tried to say "we didn't know" and blame the civil servants, prompting the civil servants to break protocol and reveal what their actual advice had been. The civil service gets enough stick as it is without being blamed for things that weren't their fault.
 
I used to love my diesel cars, which were the only ones on the list from the company I worked for and I had several over the years. If you chose wisely the low down grunt and pulling power were always gratifying and they did not have to sound like rotating hammer knocking on the bulkhead! The best two I recall were the Honda Accord 2.2 cdi and then the Rover 75 (BMW 2 litre motor I believe) - neither of these had a DPF and were totally reliable. Privately we also owned a Hyundai i40 2 litre diesel - also reliable even used for shortish trips.

When I retired I treated myself to a new Mazda 6 2.2 litre Auto Sport Nav which had Mazda's, so say, much improved DPF regeneration method (which had caused serious failures on the previous version). Absolutely lovely car BUT I was lucky to get 3.5k after an oil change before it started warning of low remaining oil life and the dipstick showing way too high a level from oil dilution by fuel. I was aware of the regeneration cycles and was always very careful to let it finish completely! I managed to get a couple of free oil and filter changes as I argued it was needed due to their mis-information and the servicing schedule was 12.5k or yearly. But it did not sit well with me and I part exed it for a MB C class after about 18 months - petrol of course - the Mazda was my last ever Diesel!
 
The civil servants knew about the particulates and other problematic exhaust emissions from diesels and included that in their assessment to ministers. But the government at the time chose to ignore that and focus only on CO2 emissions. This all came out a few years ago when ex government ministers tried to say "we didn't know" and blame the civil servants, prompting the civil servants to break protocol and reveal what their actual advice had been. The civil service gets enough stick as it is without being blamed for things that weren't their fault.
Yes, I realise they WERE actually informed but, as with lots of decisions, there were other forces in play. It's always a good idea to be able to point the finger of blame elsewhere when things go wrong!:oops:
 
Last edited:
Back
Top