EV & Driverless Practicality Survey

[Black Hole]

After my experience with QI charging, anybody who thinks inductive charging on the move (or even parked) is a possibility must be mad. My QI mouse build works - but only so long as the pickup coil is directly in contact with the transmitter coil! It's supposed to be an adaptive resonant system.

 

[MikeSh]

Yeah, yeah. All the same old stuff by anti-EVers.
And yet many people are successfully doing high mileages in EVs while helping reduce pollution and saving money. I guess they must not really exist

 

[MikeSh]

Question 7 in the survey seems a bit strange. There almost seem to be two questions in there.

 

[Deleted member 473]

After my experience with QI charging, anybody who thinks inductive charging on the move (or even parked) is a possibility must be mad. My QI mouse build works - but only so long as the pickup coil is directly in contact with the transmitter coil! It's supposed to be an adaptive resonant system.

Yes, the phone chargers are like that, unless they have a cradle. You have to be spot on, or they are useless. It works on electric toothbrushes, which slot onto a stump on the charger.

 

[Deleted member 473]

Yeah, yeah. All the same old stuff by anti-EVers.
And yet many people are successfully doing high mileages in EVs while helping reduce pollution and saving money. I guess they must not really exist

I am not anti EV, though, it is just that the technology isn't ready. It's OK if you are in a company car and don't have to worry about price, Mike, but for most of us it just isn't on yet. Maybe in 30 years when the cars and batteries last forever, the UK has been demolished so everyone has a home charger, the cars don't rust and don't weigh twice as much, cancelling out any gains, and there are renewable ways of building batteries, then the technology will be mature enough to adopt. In the mean time, it sounds as daft as brexit.

 

[Black Hole]

All the same old stuff by anti-EVers.

I'm not anti-EV. That's not the same as being pro-EV but blinkered to the problems it presents. If you can spot a scenario where EV is likely to work for me, let's hear it. The fact is I would love to get my fuel costs down, but that is not practical when it requires a £40k minimum outlay (even if the range were sufficient).

Question 7 in the survey seems a bit strange.

I can't remember what Q7 is.

 

[Deleted member 473]

It reminds me of those leavers who were for brexit, no matter what the consequences.

 

[Black Hole]

Question 7 in the survey seems a bit strange. There almost seem to be two questions in there.

Two questions? Don't try to second-guess.

It's simply asking whether the respondent feels EVs are affordable, and reminding them that the value of their existing car as trade-in will be limited by the battery depreciation or (in the case of internal combustion) lack of demand.

 

[Black Hole]

The fact is I would love to get my fuel costs down, but that is not practical when it requires a £40k minimum outlay (even if the range were sufficient).

Even if I could stump up £40k now, the idea that it could depreciate 100% in maybe 6 years is a deal breaker. In the internal combustion world, a car might depreciate by 75% in 6 years - but it still works, still has 95% of its horsepower, and 100% of its range. Buying 6 year old (internal combustion) cars and running them for another six years (minimum) only costs a third that of buying a new car every six years.

I grant you there are gains to be made in fuel savings, so the overall cost might be similar according to mileage, but it is still the lump outlay that is the problem.

I foresee a future where, if petrol becomes unavailable or too expensive, I will be unable to lead a fulfilling life.

 

[MikeSh]

If you can spot a scenario where EV is likely to work for me, let's hear it.

I have no idea what your usage profile is, so I don't even know where I'd aim the binoculars

it requires a £40k minimum outlay

it could depreciate 100% in maybe 6 years

You and scrat clearly have some very negative ideas about EVs. Neither of those figures makes sense today.
Which is why this:

It's simply asking whether the respondent feels EVs are affordable, and reminding them that the value of their existing car as trade-in will be limited by the battery depreciation or (in the case of internal combustion) lack of demand.

is a leading question ... "Given that you can't predict the future, and it might be awful, can you afford an EV?"

In fact most new cars are now bought on PCP (I've seen 3 out of 4 mentioned), which means the buyer doesn't really need to consider depreciation anyway. Eg, If after three years or whatever it's only worth £4k instead of the £8k predicted at purchase time, you just give them the keys and walk away. The lease company takes the hit.

For the record I certainly don't consider EVs the solution to everything right now. They do make sense for a lot of people and as prices fall more so, but public charging is a big mess. Although things are improving it's a slow and expensive process and the rate of EVs appearing may just be too great for it to cope for a good few/many years yet.

 

[Deleted member 473]

Haha! The loan value in pcp equals the expected depreciation. You have paid the depreciation off over the term and then have the option of paying the residual value.

So, say BH wanted his 40k car. His deposit would be 4k, leaving 36k. If the finance company reckons the car will be worth 40% after 4 years, ie, 16k, he would be paying 5k a year for finance, and would not even own the car unless he paid 12k extra. Not even counting interest repayments.

Compare that with buying a 2 year old example, which has already lost 40% of its value. So, that is 24k left and if he pays that, he has the car, it is his. If he buys a 4 year old car, that costs him 16k in total.

On the other hand, he can buy a 5 year old cheaper car of a reliable brand and is laughing.

So where is the sense of pcp? It is a way of getting the customer to pay that high depreciation rate rather than say s*d you to the dealer, I can buy an almost new car for much less.

As an example, after our car was written off, we had to get a car in a hurry, and atypically bought a hybrid at 1 year old with 3k on the clock, and paid 14k where the new price was 17k. It is now over 4 years old and has a residual trade in value of 9k. So, depreciation over 3 years has been 5k, high because the car was nearly new, with more time at our disposal we might have gone for a 2 year old car.

 

[MikeSh]

I can buy an almost new car for much less.

We were talking about NEW cars. Used is a different ballgame - stop trying to be so clever.

 

[Deleted member 473]

We were talking about NEW cars. Used is a different ballgame - stop trying to be so clever.

Stop being so selective, mike. Most of that was for a new car. pcp just means pay for depreciation.

Anyway, I thought BH was saying that buying new was not a reasonable proposition, and you certainly failed to convince me that he was wrong.

 

[Black Hole]

I have no idea what your usage profile is

Then you haven't been listening. I've already said a day trip to Bournemouth (which I would normally do every couple of weeks) is a 230-mile round trip. My mother lives 230 miles away one way. Even if I discount those trips, I typically need a 110-mile round trip minimum.

You and scrat clearly have some very negative ideas about EVs. Neither of those figures makes sense today.

Show me an EV which costs significantly less than £40k and has a real-world range of 250 miles, and batteries which retain that range over 6 years / 60,000 miles (and that's being kind - my mileage over 6 years is more like 150,000 miles).

If you think we have unrealistically negative ideas about EVs, prove your case.

 

[MikeSh]

Stop being so selective, mike. Most of that was for a new car.

One paragraph on new, three paragraphs on used, two anti-PCP.
I don't think I'm being at all selective.

Anyway, I thought BH was saying that buying new was not a reasonable proposition, and you certainly failed to convince me that he was wrong.

I wasn't anywhere near to even trying to convince him, or anybody, that he was wrong. The point is that EVs are just cars with a different drivetrain.
BH thinks for some reason that they all cost £40k new and will be worth nothing in 6 years. But if you look at leasing costs you will find they are similar to equivalent ICE cars.

So do I think BH and Scrat have a good handle on EV future values, or the bean counters at the leasing companies? Tough call - not.

You are of course welcome to believe what you believe, and I certainly don't think for a moment I could change your minds. But for those less opinionated who might read this I feel I should at least put the argument from the other side.
Like it or not, a well used BEV will (over it's lifetime, even if it's only the 10-15 years of an ICE car)) cause less CO2 emissions and (almost) zero local pollution. It may well be less convenient for some users, but that is letting perfect be the enemy of good.

 

[MikeSh]

Show me an EV which costs significantly less than £40k and has a real-world range of 250 miles, and batteries which retain that range over 6 years / 60,000 miles (and that's being kind - my mileage over 6 years is more like 150,000 miles).

Well I've just sold my Kona which has a real world range of 250 miles, more in summer, and an 8 year/100,000 battery warranty, for £26,000. Not new of course, but in vgc.

 

[Black Hole]

BH thinks for some reason that they all cost £40k new and will be worth nothing in 6 years.

You keep making claims that's wrong, but do nothing to prove your point. All I'm asking for is the evidence that my assertion is incorrect - otherwise it's all hot air.

Like it or not, a well used BEV will (over it's lifetime, even if it's only the 10-15 years of an ICE car)) cause less CO2 emissions and (almost) zero local pollution. It may well be less convenient for some users, but that is letting perfect be the enemy of good.

Agreed - but what is the good if the offering does not fit people's needs? My assertion, and the point of my survey, is that the majority are in my camp and not yours. It's all very well saying hydrogen has too many problems and EV is the better solution - but despite its problems hydrogen could be a better solution for me and perhaps the population in general.

Well I've just sold my Kona which has a real world range of 250 miles, more in summer, and an 8 year/100,000 battery warranty, for £26,000. Not new of course, but in vgc.

With how much left on the warranty? Even £26k is a tough call, even more so with reduced life. This smacks of "I'm alright jack".

 

[MikeSh]

All I'm asking for is the evidence that my assertion is incorrect - otherwise it's all hot air.

You obviously aren't going to believe anything I say, as you haven't thus far, so I suggest you do a very quick Google. The MG offerings, while not being sufficient for your specific needs without mid-trip recharging should give you an idea of where things are going price and warranty wise.

With how much left on the warranty?

3 1/2 car, 6 1/2 traction battery.
Have you never kept a car past the warranty? These days failed electronics in ICE cars can easily run a 4-figure bill.
And, shock horror, aftermarket companies are beginning to sprout up that can repair/refurbish battery packs cheaper than the manufacturers. Non-OEM parts for cars ... there's a new idea.

Even £26k is a tough call

Maybe, but you said:

it requires a £40k minimum outlay

By my math 26 is less than 40 so clearly 40 is not the minimum.

But I've never said that any of these would actually suit you. They could serve you, but you clearly don't have the mindset to accommodate the changes in behaviour that would be needed to live happily with them. That probably applies to the majority of people, so it's no surprise.
It's also the way most people think about climate change and pollution and means we are probably doomed to suffer whatever those things bring upon us. If anything of course ... Trump and his pals could yet be proved right and it's all just a con.

despite its problems hydrogen could be a better solution for me and perhaps the population in general.

It's possible, but at present it's little more than vaporware. (I saw mention the other day that even Toyota are parking it for now, though I've not tried to verify that.)
As with computers, you can keep waiting for the next generation to come out before buying, but at some point you'll need to take something that actually exists.

This smacks of "I'm alright jack".

Do explain.

 

[Deleted member 473]

Well I've just sold my Kona which has a real world range of 250 miles, more in summer, and an 8 year/100,000 battery warranty, for £26,000. Not new of course, but in v

I don't take advice about saving the planet from people who go rlectric but buy an SUV!

If you are serious about this, you buy a car that is not leading a trend to larger cars, not a Chelsea tractor.

Anyway, your sale price would have more impact if you quoted what it cost 3.5 years ago when new, without any government subsidy. Also, was it a trade in figure, as they are a minefield.

 

[Deleted member 473]

lol@ mike

Asking BH if he has ever kept a car past its warranty!

At counting paragraphs in one of my posts

Well I've just sold my Kona which has a real world range of 250 miles, more in summer, and an 8 year/100,000 battery warranty, for £26,000. Not new of course, but in vgc.

150 miles real world, 250 if you pootle round the city.