EV & Driverless Practicality Survey

Black Hole

May contain traces of nut
So we need solutions which work, not band-wagons. It isn't relevant that hydrogen is only 30% efficient (or whatever) if it releases no carbon in the overall cycle and provides the necessary range.

Suppose you could somehow "hydrogen enrich" existing transport fuels and retain compatibility with existing engines - that would provide a stop-gap.

...but we're doomed anyway, it matters not a jot what you or I might do personally.

Quite so. But we are years away, decades probably, from having sufficient clean power to produce that hydrogen.
You also need to account the energy and material required to build all that generation - at present you'll need about 2.5 times more generation capacity for hydrogen than battery. So for example you'd need a windfarm that's 2.5 times larger, and they aren't exactly small or cheap now.
In the meantime batteries are the only solution that is here now, regardless of how imperfect they might be.


There is talk of mixing hydrogen into the gas supply grid to 'decarbonise' it, but as with bio fuels there are limits to how much can be done before you have to start modifying the transportation and consuming equipment to handle it.
But that's all gas - I imagine trying to mix gas and liquid fuels would be even more challenging.

To gauge the level of the problem, and as the "Poll" forum option is too light-weight, I've built a survey on survio.com (free plan for up to 100 respondents, recommended). Rather than put the link to the survey in public, anyone who would like to fill it in please ping me a PM (click here). I'll publish the outcome in a week or so.
 
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OP
Black Hole

Black Hole

May contain traces of nut
I have set up the survey to find out what "ordinary" people think about it and are likely to do about it - qualification is irrelevant.
 
D

Deleted member 473

I have set up the survey to find out what "ordinary" people think about it and are likely to do about it - qualification is irrelevant.
What makes you think the people here are ordinary? We have a sabre toothed squirrel, a black hole, a rat, ...

Edit: And a duck!
 
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OP
Black Hole

Black Hole

May contain traces of nut
What makes you think the people here are ordinary? We have a sabre toothed squirrel, a black hole, a rat, ...
Does it matter? We are a section of the community, even if not a statistically-balanced cross-section.

anyone who would like to fill it in please ping me a PM
No takers? It's only a case of answering a few questions on-line (anonymously if you like) same as you would on a forum poll.
 

MikeSh

Well-Known Member
No takers? It's only a case of answering a few questions on-line (anonymously if you like) same as you would on a forum poll.
If it's so simple why is it hidden away needing your 'permission' to access?

I'm sorry to be negative but many hours over the years filling amateur, and probably more often professional-written-by-amateur, polls has made me wary of following links to them. (You would not believe the number BYTs who come to the EV forums with either poorly built questionnaires about using EVs, or ideas for new apps - which already exist.)
In this case the title indicates subjects that aren't really a matter of personal opinion in terms of national take up - one is happening now, the other is coming sometime.
 
OP
Black Hole

Black Hole

May contain traces of nut
If it's so simple why is it hidden away needing your 'permission' to access?
Because this is a public forum, and non-forum-members can read it. My free Survio sign-up only allows 100 respondents.

I'm sorry to be negative but many hours over the years filling amateur, and probably more often professional-written-by-amateur, polls has made me wary of following links to them.
So see what you think of my retired-professional survey form!

In this case the title indicates subjects that aren't really a matter of personal opinion in terms of national take up - one is happening now, the other is coming sometime.
Only if the public are prepared to go along with it. Governments decide, but the people taketh power away from governments.
 

MikeSh

Well-Known Member
Only if the public are prepared to go along with it. Governments decide, but the people taketh power away from governments.
There are dozens of more representative surveys out there already, so I'm struggling to see what possible value the results of such a small, niche survey is going to add.
From the posts on here I get the impression there is a slight anti-EV bias, so it might be interesting to know if that is so, but then it would depend on who responds - which is generally the ones with stronger views.

Just googled some surveys. This caught my eye:
"40% of Americans said they will buy a car in the future and will consider buying an all-electric car, 30% said they will buy a car in the future but will not consider buying an all-electric car, and 28% said they will not buy a car in the future. Thus, of future car buyers, 57% said they will consider buying an EV."

That did surprise me as it's America.
 
OP
Black Hole

Black Hole

May contain traces of nut
But there seems to me a fundamental problem: I'm not sure I could afford to buy EV, and one aspect of my survey is to see how general that might be. Add to that its impracticality for my purposes. That's not an anti-EV bias, that's the reality.

But if you won't look, you won't know. It seems to me you have fixed ideas just the same as you think I do.
 
D

Deleted member 473

Plus, at present, EVs seem to be impractical apart from in certain areas. Just down from us are loads of roads choked with parked cars because the houses are terraces, else semis with steep front gardens. None can accommodate a charge point. If there were public ones there, cars would choke them off.

We only just went through a life changing government plan to move people to clean diesels. That was a disaster because the Heath Robinson technology of turbo diesel engines is not up to it, with constant breakdowns due to blocked filters and dual mass flywheels, and also, on top of that, the cars weren't even clean.

To propose now a switch to another untested technology, using massive storage batteries that rely on mining rare metals, which may run out in a few years time, and ranges that even believing the inflated manufacturer figures are a big step back, is ludicrous.

We reject fossil fuels because they are a limited resource. Please let's not replace those with another limited resource. We all know manufacturers survive by building cars that have limited lifetimes, that rust, that wear out rapidly, so we need first to make sure that any replacements for ICEs have a long life, say 20 to 30 years, with power trains that go that long with minimal loss of power, and that don't weigh so much we lose much of the advantage of EVs. To me, the charging problems look insurmountable without demolishing and rebuilding much of Britain.
 
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MikeSh

Well-Known Member
But there seems to me a fundamental problem: I'm not sure I could afford to buy EV,
If you can afford a new ICE car then in the next few years you will be able to afford an EV. Prices are coming down and parity is expected soon. (For people doing reasonable annual mileages the ownership cost over a few years is already better as the fuel is a fraction of the price.)

Used cars is going to be longer - obviously. Every week someone appears on the EV forum moaning that they want one but can't find a good one for the £5,000 they can afford. Well, yeah.
There are plenty of used EVs around now in fact, but being early models they mostly have small batteries and other limitations, so aren't hugely attractive.

People forget it took well over 100 years to get where ICE cars are today - these things don't mature overnight.

But if you won't look, you won't know.
OK, send me the link and I'll have a look.
 
D

Deleted member 473

I am only more or less balanced in one dimension. In the other two (spatial) dimensions I am definitely not. In the temporal dimension I am not balanced at all.
↫↬↯↭↰↶
 
OP
Black Hole

Black Hole

May contain traces of nut
If you can afford a new ICE car then in the next few years you will be able to afford an EV.
My current ICE (In-Circuit Emulator) car was 6 years old when I bought it, and is now 14 years old. So long as the rust is kept at bay, routine maintenance keeps it running well. Try that with an EV!
 
D

Deleted member 473

If you can afford a new ICE car then in the next few years you will be able to afford an EV.
But wanting to afford a new car, one that loses 30% of its value the moment you drive it away, is a desire that many of us left behind long ago. Between the ages of 25 and 40 I was stupid enough to do this, but no longer. What is a reasonable price to pay for a new car?

Prices are coming down and parity is expected soon. (For people doing reasonable annual mileages the ownership cost over a few years is already better as the fuel is a fraction of the price.)
The paradox being that returns are highest for high mileage users, exactly what they are not designed for.

And recharge prices at home are cheap, but can be more expensive than fossil fuel on the road. For instance, Ionity charge 69p per kwh don't they, and, guess what? Their expensive chargers are next to motorways.
Used cars is going to be longer - obviously. Every week someone appears on the EV forum moaning that they want one but can't find a good one for the £5,000 they can afford. Well, yeah.
Exactly, there is suddeniy absolutely nothing at the lower end.
There are plenty of used EVs around now in fact, but being early models they mostly have small batteries and other limitations, so aren't hugely attractive.
Range of at least 400 miles and weight on 1 ton seems reasonable to me.
People forget it took well over 100 years to get where ICE cars are today - these things don't mature overnight.
Which is exactly what we are expected to do now.
 
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D

Deleted member 473

My current ICE (In-Circuit Emulator) car was 6 years old when I bought it, and is now 14 years old. So long as the rust is kept at bay, routine maintenance keeps it running well. Try that with an EV! Rather like cordless vacuum cleaners.
New, this car had a range of 300 miles according to the official figures, but was really more like 200 on the motorway. Now, the batteries are degraded, so the range is more like 120 miles. Oh, and replacing those batteries costs more than the value of the car.

Sounds like DMF over again🤣🤣🤣
 
OP
Black Hole

Black Hole

May contain traces of nut
Cordless vacuum cleaners are the same: a very good way for canny manufacturers to flog white elephants to people with more money than sense, aided by the EU regulating how much power a corded vacuum can consume and how much noise it can make. After a year or two the batteries are buggered and those well-off people think nothing of chucking it out and buying a new one.

And they're weak as dishwater anyway. Who cares how much power and how much noise? It's not like it gets used for hours a day (and even less in my house). What you need is a tool that does the job properly, and lasts for a decent period of time.
 
D

Deleted member 473

Oh, and cordless vacuum cleaner batteries don't run for long, and can go completely dead after 5 years, like a Dyson we had. Their suction sucks, too. They will never replace mains cleaners, unless you like dirty homes. I suppose if you fit laminate everywhere they are OK.

Edit: Snap.
 
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