Power issues

hazfiend

New Member
I looked but didn't find this on the forum so just a tip for power issues that I discovered and might be useful for others. Sometimes the power required by the desktop hard disk the HDR-T2 ships with is too much for the motherboard or something and the unit enters a loop where it reboots automatically the instant the hard drive is told to spin up.

I found that a 2.5" laptop drive, with lower power consumption, easier spin up and so forth can get around this problem by allowing the machine to boot up and then works normally. I hope this comes in handy for someone.
 

MartinLiddle

Super Moderator
Staff member
I looked but didn't find this on the forum so just a tip for power issues that I discovered and might be useful for others. Sometimes the power required by the desktop hard disk the HDR-T2 ships with is too much for the motherboard or something and the unit enters a loop where it reboots automatically the instant the hard drive is told to spin up.
It is not a desktop hard drive; it is drive optimised for use in a PVR. You shouldn't have had any problems with the box booting up; the fact that you did suggests the power supply is failing. Interested to hear how the 2.5" drive performs long term (eg you might get bad stuttering as the drive ages and begins to map out sectors).
 

prpr

Well-Known Member
It is not a desktop hard drive; it is drive optimised for use in a PVR. You shouldn't have had any problems with the box booting up
Well, it's interesting then that I see quite a few "crashed" log entries at about 13s or so. What causes those? It never does it twice in quick succession.
I don't think you are right to dismiss it out of hand without any evidence.
the fact that you did suggests the power supply is failing.
Another inference based on what?
Interested to hear how the 2.5" drive performs long term
Yes, me too. I tried an old desktop class drive on my HD as an experiment (it was WEEE otherwise anyway) and it was unusable in a few weeks with bad sectors. Those sort of drives are just not up to it IMHO.
 

MartinLiddle

Super Moderator
Staff member
Well, it's interesting then that I see quite a few "crashed" log entries at about 13s or so. What causes those? It never does it twice in quick succession.
I don't know; I haven't seen them.
I don't think you are right to dismiss it out of hand without any evidence.
I was unconvinced by the theory that a healthy HDR-FOX T2 power supply can't spin up a 3.5" hard drive; I have never seen it happen and I don't recollect it being commonly reported. Do you believe it?
Another inference based on what?
3.5" failing to spin up and 2,5" succeeding could be down to a power supply that is below par but I agree there could be other explanations.
 

Trev

The Dumb One
What about the fact that a 3.5 needs 12v and a 2.5 doesn't? Could that have any bearing on the situation?
 

Black Hole

May contain traces of nut
That means the 2.5" loads the 5V rail instead of the 12V rail (a 3.5" drawing motor power from the 12V rail would be much lighter on 5V), so it's not ideal (assuming the system was designed specifically for 12V HDD spinning). However, that said, I hang a couple of external HDDs off the USB ports with no problems.

Sometimes the power required by the desktop hard disk the HDR-T2 ships with is too much for the motherboard or something and the unit enters a loop where it reboots automatically the instant the hard drive is told to spin up.
"or something" is the operative phrase here. Unless the OP hasn't told the whole story, there has been no investigation into the problem other than 'I swapped the Humax-supplied HDD with a 2.5" disk and found it worked'. Who says there's not a fault with the HDD? It's not automatically a PSU problem - and even if it is, it's not automatically a problem with the design specifications.

I found that a 2.5" laptop drive, with lower power consumption, easier spin up and so forth can get around this problem by allowing the machine to boot up and then works normally. I hope this comes in handy for someone.
I think you'll find it's pretty much covered here: Steps for Resolving HDR-FOX Crash/Reboot Issues (click)
 
OP
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hazfiend

New Member
Quoting MartinLiddle: "Do you believe it?"

I'm in Lincolnshire, lemme know when you're coming and I'll arrange a demonstration. I can even show different drives, different cables and different power supply boards demonstrating the same fault. Will you believe me then? If you prefer to retain your pre-conceptions anyway, it might be a wasted journey.
 

Black Hole

May contain traces of nut
That's a bit more story, which you should have described in the first place. Anything else you haven't said?
 
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MartinLiddle

Super Moderator
Staff member
I'm in Lincolnshire, lemme know when you're coming and I'll arrange a demonstration. I can even show different drives, different cables and different power supply boards demonstrating the same fault. Will you believe me then? If you prefer to retain your pre-conceptions anyway, it might be a wasted journey.
You said nothing about trying different power supply boards in your original post. I am still surprised because it is not a commonly reported problem which still suggests to me something specific to your setup.
 

Black Hole

May contain traces of nut
I can even show different drives, different cables and different power supply boards demonstrating the same fault.
How did you obtain spare PSU modules?

I would not expect, and have not experienced (4 HDR-FOXes in regular use), significant systematic problems in this area, nor have they been reported on this forum to any great extent. There is more to this than meets the eye (or possibly less).
 
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hazfiend

New Member
Spare PSUs in working boxes. I bought 3 machines, well, I got one originally, bought two more SH once I discovered the joys of networking them and then a cheap fourth as a "broken" machine that turned out just to have a drive problem. Seemed physical so I guess the seller dropped it. So swapping bits out is pretty easy. The PSU comes out with the main cable attached if you are lazy like me. They're mostly on 2TB drives, one has custom firmware but I haven't noticed it doing things much differently to the original, although I did update them to whichever official firmware allowed me to upgrade to 2TB. The fault shows when a 3.5" drive (one that works on another machine) is connected to the mobo. If I unplug the power lead from the board it'll boot to "no storage". However if I put a 2.5" drive on instead of any of the 3.5" ones, it's been fine and I had imagined this to be because they use around 5 watts on spin rather than the 20 or so from a desktop drive. It's an interesting point that they also run off 5v rather than needing 12v too. Largely academic because if the fault on the mobo is either a loss of 12v at the connector *or* a supply issue of power of either type it's probably not something I could fix. I could find out by checking the presence of +12v on the yellow wire, in fact I might do that when I get back to the home office.
 

Stummery

Member
the desktop hard disk the HDR-T2 ships with is too much for the motherboard

I bought 3 machines.... They're mostly on 2TB drives

Confused information, the HDR Fox T2 was never shipped new with a 2TB HDD.

Out of interest to test the power supply capability on my machine I connected a 500GB Seagate and a 1TB WD via a SATA power splitter and both powered up without any problems. I alternated the data cable between drives for 5 starts each. So the power supply is more than able to supply/switch the required current for the usual 1 HDD.
 
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hazfiend

New Member
Confused information, the HDR Fox T2 was never shipped new with a 2TB HDD.

Out of interest to test the power supply capability on my machine I connected a 500GB Seagate and a 1TB WD via a SATA power splitter and both powered up without any problems. I alternated the data cable between drives for 5 starts each. So the power supply is more than able to supply/switch the required current for the usual 1 HDD.

I didn't say the motherboard can't handle the drive it ships with. I said my motherboard has reached a point where it can't handle the drive it shipped with. Plus I didn't post to make a point about this but offer a solution to anyone else who has encountered the same issue that I did.

I didn't say the box shipped with 2TB, I said mine are mostly on 2TB, which they are. I even said I had to upgrade the firmware for them to do this.

Attaching multiple drives to the connector is great - the box I am talking about would fail to boot on one drive so I'd be impressed if you could get it to boot with several drives connected. Prove me wrong - I'll put £100 down that you can't.

Is this forum populated by people who want to argue about facts rather than get answers? GENUINE QUESTION.
 

Black Hole

May contain traces of nut
No, this forum is populated by people who have been discussing all things HDR-FOX since 2010, and have a great deal of experience and technical knowledge both with HDR-FOX in particular and with electronics and software in general. For example: I am a digital electronics design engineer with 30 years experience in the design of military-grade computing and communications hardware (which has a design service life of 20 years).

The reason for the nit-picking is that the detail of what you say does not add up. As an engineer, I expect to see evidence for any claim - either in the post itself or in the general experience. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and I'm not seeing much of that here. Genuine facts are only arrived at by being robustly examined, so if your intention is to arrive at genuine facts, you will appreciate the nit-picking as necessary to get to the fundamental truth.

I take on board your suggestion that a 2.5" drive might get a system with a dicky PSU working again, but I would regard this as clutching at straws - if the PSU has degraded to that extent, I seriously question its remaining life. I remain very sceptical about your statement that you have repeatable results across three PSU modules and alternate 3.5" drives, because as far as I can see this is a fault condition and all combinations have to be suffering from the same fault. One of my units has been in continuous use since 2010, and the others are not much younger. If there was a systematic problem with PSU life I'm pretty sure I would have noticed.

If you had said something like "hey guys, I've found that if a PSU has a dodgy 12V output, swapping a 2.5" notebook drive for the 3.5" drive overcomes the problem", nobody would have turned a hair and you would have been applauded for the suggestion. But you didn't. Your post sounded like you are querying the ability of the HDR-FOX to run the stock 3.5" drive, hence the arguments - because there is no general experience of that.

2TB are not stock drives, and if they have a higher start-up power requirement than the stock drives, therein lies the problem. What it sounds like now is that you have bought in a batch of HDR-FOXes that have been upgraded by a third party using inappropriate 2TB drives, and then sold on under false pretences.

You originally stated that you couldn't find anything posted about this, but my analysis (not including the 2.5" work-around) is covered in the link I provided before (which links out to Commissioning, Disassembling, and Repairing an HDR-FOX - click). I will add this work-around to the corpus, with credit to you.
 
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Stummery

Member
Agree with MartinLiddle and Black Hole

The trouble is that people who quote things as facts sometimes do so incorrectly. Then get upset/throw the toys out of the pram when corrected and given advice/asked for further information in good faith.

We have given hazfiend true factual information and it is him who seems to want to argue/disagree about it.

I didn't say the motherboard can't handle the drive it ships with.
Sorry, but yes you did in your original post - that I quoted!!

A correctly operating box will power a HDD without problem. Both of mine will power the 2 drives I listed in post #12. If his does not it must either have a fault or the HDD is not an AV drive or to the correct specification!
 
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Black Hole

May contain traces of nut
It is definitely moving in that direction - Yes - from someone who has watched the changes over the last 6 years
So you believe in God just because somebody told you to? No - examine all new data, particularly data that is contrary to previous measurement, with all due scepticism until it is robustly confirmed. Nothing wrong with that, it's the proper scientific method, and if you are willing to take everything at face value without query I hope you win that Canadian lottery you just entered.

The "change over the last 6 years" is entirely attributable to the accumulation of data that is difficult to contradict, and anyone who tries needs some pretty solid proof.
 

Ezra Pound

Well-Known Member
So you believe in God just because somebody told you to?

Over the years you have mentioned religion several times on this forum, not sure why, it never seems relavant, for the record, no I don't have a god (or gods)

I hope you win that Canadian lottery you just entered.

???

The "change over the last 6 years" is entirely attributable to the accumulation of data that is difficult to contradict

How is the constant nit-picking that even you admit to attributable to the accumulation of data ?

Just have a look back to 2011 and see how few (if any) items of nit-picking, irrelevant corrections of user's spelling / grammar etc. there were, back then goal was help users not ridicule them
 
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