Sound is too dynamic?

Andy Hurley said:
I get inaudible dialogue with music and FX so loud the TV rattles
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That is just your TV speakers unable to cope with the sound and distorting the high volumes. Have you tried hooking the output into your stereo? You will then get loud music and effects without the rattling!

As a matter of interest, how do you find BBC1 sound compares with BBC1 HD sound when played through your (stereo) TV speakers? (Assuming you can find a BBC1 HD program broadcast in 5.1 rather than in 2.0.)
 
Mike0001 said:
Pitch shift would count as sine-->sine, too.
It is not my specialist field, but amplitude compression will always introduce distortion, won't it?
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Amplitude change and possibly dynamic compression are things likely to be handled by the Audio processor in the SOC device used by the Humax, I can't see pitch shifting being an option. There is no reason why manipulating the dynamic range should (in the digital domain) introduce audible audio distortion, This Digital Signal Processing usually employs fast Fourier transform e.g. mathematics
 
Ezra Pound said:
Amplitude change and possibly dynamic compression are things likely to be handled by the Audio processor in the SOC device used by the Humax, I can't see pitch shifting being an option. There is no reason why manipulating the dynamic range should (in the digital domain) introduce audible audio distortion, This Digital Signal Processing usually employs fast Fourier transform e.g. mathematics
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I was just pointing out that if you were looking for transformations that map sine waves to sine waves, frequency shift and delay do that!

The distortion comes from the fact that the timbre of a sound depends upon the ratios of volume of the various frequencies; change that and the sound changes. Also, if the relative volumes are constantly changing, you introduce nonlinear distortions.

As a simple example, if you do an FFT of a flute and change the spectral distribution of frequencies of overtones, you can change it into an oboe or a piano, clarinet or just about any instrument that produces a fundamental with overtones. And that is just the simplest of cases.

If you then take a complex sound and ensure that the average peak envelope over say a second interval is always the same you get horrific distortion. Or pop music, as it is otherwise known!
 
Back to basics as I too appreciate the OP's frustration so I experimented last night with the second and thankfully final instalment of 'Shetland'. I use an Onkyo amp coupled to two floorstanders and a centre speaker. I watched the first episode in HiDef (using theatre sound option) and although there wasn't much music to drown out the dialogue, I had difficulty understanding the notoriously closed mouthed Scottish actors, despite being able to increase the volume of the centre speaker.

Last night I viewed using BBC1 and all channel stereo on the amp. As I am used to the theatre sound for HiDef it sounded strangely flat, but the dialogue was marginally easier to hear and came to the conclusion that it was the actor's delivery that was the problem. My wife agreed as her hearing is reputedly better than mine! The men mainly had 'darker voices' and the women's higher pitch was easier to decipher.

Re the OP, we find the listening experience using amp and speakers vastly superior to the basics (over 20 years of using this method), and if you buy an amp, ensure that there is the facility for enhancing the centre speaker as this balances out the loudness music from the left and right and saves reaching for the volume control.

With poorer speech delivery I find myself inceasingly looking at the actor's lips and missing bits in the background.
 
There is always a lot of comment in "feedback" type programmes on radio and TV about the increasing preponderance and volume of soundtracks behind the commentary/dialogue, even in documentaries. In general the audience (and even the writers and presenters) doesn't seem to like it, but the producers feel they need to use it to keep with the times.
 
RobH1 said:
and if you buy an amp, ensure that there is the facility for enhancing the centre speaker as this balances out the loudness music from the left and right and saves reaching for the volume control.
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Or buy and amp with a dynamic range compression facility. On my amp it is called 'Night Mode' and this brings the dialog up, while crushing the booming explosions.
 
Ours has 'Night Mode' but have not seen the need for us as we have no one around us to upset but I'll give it a go.
 
Mike0001 said:
That is just your TV speakers unable to cope with the sound and distorting the high volumes. Have you tried hooking the output into your stereo? You will then get loud music and effects without the rattling!

As a matter of interest, how do you find BBC1 sound compares with BBC1 HD sound when played through your (stereo) TV speakers? (Assuming you can find a BBC1 HD program broadcast in 5.1 rather than in 2.0.)
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Trust me, that's not the problem. The sound is so loud it wakes everyone in the house even when the dialogue cannot be heard 2 metres away, if I wear headphones I am deafened by the music whilst hardly hearing the dialogue. I don't get the same problem watching on the Laptop which has a far inferior sound system. On the TV I usually have to turn the subtitles on in order to view a film later at night which I why I normally give up and watch on my laptop.

I try to never watch or record HD as we only have an SD set and HD recordings stutter really badly when I play them over the LAN so this is always from SD. I don't know which channel it happened on last but I will try to capture a recording the next time.
 
RobH1 said:
Ours has 'Night Mode' but have not seen the need for us as we have no one around us to upset but I'll give it a go.
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Although it is marketed as a feature to protect others around you from your noisy TV viewing habbits :D , that is not its only use. Dynamic compression is a perfect way to bring the level of dialog up to a point where it can be heard clearly, without rattling the windows out of their frames.

I mostly only use it on TV stuff, but also if the little one is in bed.
 
lstar337 said:
Although it is marketed as a feature to protect others around you from your noisy TV viewing habbits :D , that is not its only use. Dynamic compression is a perfect way to bring the level of dialog up to a point where it can be heard clearly, without rattling the windows out of their frames.

I mostly only use it on TV stuff, but also if the little one is in bed.
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Well, I have night modes but never use them as they sound so awfully distorted. There are various levels of compression, all of which sound inferior to the pure sound.

I can change the mix of the centre channel in the L and R speakers in one Amp mode, from totally centre to almost entirely L/R too. Also, you should be able to push up the centre volume but that will affect the surround image.
 
RobH1 said:
Last night I viewed using BBC1 and all channel stereo on the amp. As I am used to the theatre sound for HiDef it sounded strangely flat, but the dialogue was marginally easier to hear and came to the conclusion that it was the actor's delivery that was the problem. My wife agreed as her hearing is reputedly better than mine! The men mainly had 'darker voices' and the women's higher pitch was easier to decipher.
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Not a good choice! Within 10 minutes of episode 1 starting we had subtitles on, the dialogue and accents were so difficult!

So, they went for a "Scandinavian" feel and they got it, as we were reading subtitles most of the time!
 
Mike0001 said:
Well, I have night modes but never use them as they sound so awfully distorted.
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Don't know why that would be. I only have a single Night Mode on my amp, and I don't have any audible distortion.

I don't have a great amp (Only a Pioneer 5.1), but my Kef iQ50 speakers would highlight any distortion in seconds! Since I have never detected any, I can only assume that my amp isn't creating any.
 
lstar337 said:
Don't know why that would be. I only have a single Night Mode on my amp, and I don't have any audible distortion.

I don't have a great amp (Only a Pioneer 5.1), but my Kef iQ50 speakers would highlight any distortion in seconds! Since I have never detected any, I can only assume that my amp isn't creating any.
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Agreed, that's why I said " I think distortion that can only be measured by instrumentation (rather than the ear) is acceptable" in #38. You can probably measure an increase in distortion due to the compression process using instrumentation but so what. As long as a user hears the benefit of the 'Night Mode' and doesn't hear a reduction in quality, it's doing a worthwhile job in my book
 
lstar337 said:
Don't know why that would be. I only have a single Night Mode on my amp, and I don't have any audible distortion.

I don't have a great amp (Only a Pioneer 5.1), but my Kef iQ50 speakers would highlight any distortion in seconds! Since I have never detected any, I can only assume that my amp isn't creating any.
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I think you will find the sound is distorted, but you are not so sensitive to it. If you can live with that, good for you.

Any dynamic range compression is distortion. The mix of instruments will change in an instrumental piece, and, of course, their dynamic range will change too. That makes them sound unnatural. I have tried several times experimenting with the mildest compression setting on my amp and after a while find myself going back to pure sound because it sounds so dreadful. Plus, occasionally, when sounds get flattened into the voice range, it is even more difficult to hear speech!

Ezra: I agree with what you say, but dispute your claim that the compression is inaudible. It is very audible, if you know what to listen for. In fact, compression is one reason why LPs sound inferior to CDs IMHO.

I think we are all agreed, mostly, that it is the mix that is at fault and not the Hummy, though. There is always a conflict between realism and audibility, eg, in a noisy environment on set, should dialogue be inaudible like in real life or unnaturally audible? (Building site, club, plane.)

Interesting discussion though.
 
Yes, it's all down to the user and IF any added distortion is audible to them. I would still like to see a 'Night Mode' on the Humax as long as it was switchable, but it ain't going to happen, so If you want it you are going to put an AV amp in the path that has this feature, It will add distortion but as long as you can't hear it, (and I think most people won't), then your problem is solved
 
Are you saying that a stylus wiggling in a groove carved into a plastic disk, with a maximum deflection of about a twentieth of a mm, has a better resolution, noise floor, and stereo separation than 16 bits of digital data?

Let's not get into a digital v analogue war.
 
Hooray......have noticed this all the time with my Humax through my ancient Toshiba widescreen and through gf's new Humax through LG tv. Was at wits end with continually adjusting volume. Improved it by switching to different sound setting on the Toshiba. One of the surround settings I think. Is a lot better. Had complained to the BBC customer lot, music very loud and dialogue barely heard. Countryfile item link and national/ local news intro are still bad in my opinion. Blasting high impact volume. Bring back steam driven valve tv sound!
 
This is all very well, but still no confirmed observations of the OP's complaint - that the dialogue goes up and down in volume.
 
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