Stereo/surround sound - (was ITV Local News Midlands (HD and SD swap))

[EEPhil]

I get my Freeview transmissions from the Waltham-on-the-Wolds transmitter on the eastern edge of the (former) Central region.
Usually, if I want to watch the (usually pre-recorded) East Midlands news I have to switch to the StdDef (D3&4/PSB2) version. HiDef (BBCB/PSB3) shows the West Midlands version.
Whilst watching Good Morning Britain this morning, I switched from HiDef to StdDef at local news time and ended up with the West Midlands news. Ah, technical fault I thought - so I switched back to HiDef, where I was greeted with the East Midlands news. Obviously some numpty has pressed the wrong buttons. I'm sure this won't be a permanent change. At least I managed to get the local weather, which is what I really wanted. Why ITV can't provide proper sub-regional news like the BBC now does on HiDef I don't know.

 

[Owen Smith]

Why ITV can't provide proper sub-regional news like the BBC now does on HiDef I don't know.

It wouldn't make them any additional advertising revenue so being ITV they don't care. Same reason they're the only Freeview HiDef channel that never transmits 5.1 sound.

 

[Rodders53]

AIUI it is all down to playout and similar terrestrial infrastructure change costs... (see DigitalSpy forums?).

After all, ITV essentially funded the upgrade works needed by BBC B code and mux to do the BBC English Regions in HD/Upscaled HD on Freeview; and their regions are HD on satellite so something <fundamentally internally ITV> is stopping the correct streams being fed to the encoders and thence to the terrestrial transmitter groups.

Stereo vs Surround will be similar but all within ITV's (outsourced) playout contract(s).

https://www.itvplc.com/contact-us is the place to comment / complain / enquire.

Channel 5 afaik is always 2.0 on Freeview and always 5.1 on satellite regardless of the actual audio content (with the latter causing some sound mangling at times).

 

[Owen Smith]

Channel 5 afaik is always 2.0 on Freeview and always 5.1 on satellite regardless of the actual audio content (with the latter causing some sound mangling at times).

Not true. 5 HD on Freeview HD frequently have 5.1 sound when they show a film.

 

[Rodders53]

Not true. 5 HD on Freeview HD frequently have 5.1 sound when they show a film.

BBCB-PSB3 content of DTT UK London / National

Bitrate measurements of TV channels and Radio DAB+ DTT FIBER Satellite Cable OTT.

www.digitalbitrate.com

would seem to disagree.

Note Freeview (DTT / DVB-T2) BBC and C4 services have 320kbit max (surround) and ITV/5 have only 128kbit/s (stereo) HE-AAC encoded.

Use MediaInfo to examine a recorded film from 5 (e.g. ex a Humax HDR-Fox-T2 to show me I am wrong). NB any half-decent AVR will upscale the DD2.0 to Dolby Surround with rather good surround effects.

I've just set mine to record No Safe Haven a 2023 film tomorrow afternoon on 5HD just to check .
BBC's Miss Austen is in 5.1 on it (yet to be watched).

 

[Owen Smith]

BBCB-PSB3 content of DTT UK London / National

Bitrate measurements of TV channels and Radio DAB+ DTT FIBER Satellite Cable OTT.

www.digitalbitrate.com

would seem to disagree.

That only tells you the bit rate of what was being broadcast last time it sampled the mux.

Note Freeview (DTT / DVB-T2) BBC and C4 services have 320kbit max (surround) and ITV/5 have only 128kbit/s (stereo) HE-AAC encoded.

I think that is what was being broadcast at the time.

Use MediaInfo to examine a recorded film from 5 (e.g. ex a Humax HDR-Fox-T2 to show me I am wrong). NB any half-decent AVR will upscale the DD2.0 to Dolby Surround with rather good surround effects.

My Arcam AVR31 clearly tells me whether my Humax HDR Fox T2 is outputting Dolby Digital 2.0 or 5.1 so I can easily tell. I'm aware this is a conversion from the broadcast AAC.

I've seen Dolby Digital 5.1 reported when watching films on 5. It could have been a while since I watched one. I know I'm not mis-remembering because I was shocked to see true 5.1 sound from 5.

 

[Rodders53]

I think digitalbitrate is a bit more that <a moment in time> snapshot. It includes stats for the BBC timeshare channels in the DVB-T2 mux, for example...

Everything I record and watch on 5 is reported as DD 5.1 via satellite. That does NOT mean they are actually originally surround sound from that service.

As I say... use MediaInfo or some other program to examine the transport streams of 5 HD programmes, including films and present the evidence rather than your vague memories? Note the fixed 2.0 Freeview and 5.1 satellite has been widely reported on other forums, but I'm happy to be corrected with suitable hard evidence.

Here's the MediaInfo for the film yesterday:

Audio
ID : 6402 (0x1902)
Menu ID : 17728 (0x4540)
Format : AAC LC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec Low Complexity
Muxing mode : LATM
Codec ID : 17-2
Duration : 1 h 42 min
Bit rate mode : Variable
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel layout : L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate : 46.875 FPS (1024 SPF)
Compression mode : Lossy
Delay relative to video : -971 ms
Language : English
Editorial classification : Main
Mix type : Independent

Clearly in stereo only, and no AD track to boot. Full .txt file attached. I'll repeat for today's afternoon film
EDIT (Deadly Secrets, also stereo audio, txt file attached in the edit.)

 

[Owen Smith]

Everything I record and watch on 5 is reported as DD 5.1 via satellite. That does NOT mean they are actually originally surround sound from that service.

Freeview HD does not do that. Channels change between 2.0 and 5.1, heck on Channel 4 you can be watching a 5.1 film and the adverts have 2.0 sound and my AVR has to resync (which is quite quick on this model).

BBC Freeview HD channels regularly switch between 5.1 and 2.0. Gentleman Jack was in 5.1 and Doctor Who coming up soon will be if it's the same as previous seasons, whereas most UK only targetted stuff is in 2.0. Films on BBC are usually 5.1 if new enough.

 

[Rodders53]

Freeview HD does not do that. Channels change between 2.0 and 5.1, heck on Channel 4 you can be watching a 5.1 film and the adverts have 2.0 sound and my AVR has to resync (which is quite quick on this model).

BBC Freeview HD channels regularly switch between 5.1 and 2.0. Gentleman Jack was in 5.1 and Doctor Who coming up soon will be if it's the same as previous seasons, whereas most UK only targetted stuff is in 2.0. Films on BBC are usually 5.1 if new enough.

Grandmother suck eggs?

FIVE on satellite is fixed 5.1 unlike BBC, C4 where it varies with the programme. ITV is 2.0.

FIVE on Freeview is fixed 2.0 like ITV is. BBC & C4 do both 2.0 and 5.1.

It's been thus since 5 joined freesat and went in the clear, if not always.
Doctor Who was not in 5.1 last series I have the .ts files to prove it, and was why I watched in UHD with 2.0 sound via iPlayer.

 

[Owen Smith]

Doctor Who was not in 5.1 last series I have the .ts files to prove it, and was why I watched in UHD with 2.0 sound via iPlayer.

I don't have any saved recordings so I can't disprove that. BUT, I would have noticed and I'm certain it was in 5.1 on Freeview HD. With the money from the US tie up it was the most expensively made series Dr Who by far, so there's no reason for it to be in stereo when prior series were in 5.1.

 

[Rodders53]

With the money from the US tie up it was the most expensively made series Dr Who by far, so there's no reason for it to be in stereo when prior series were in 5.1.

It will have been / is 5.1 on Disney+ streaming.

Attached files
2013 Dr Who 3D 5.1 sound
2024 May Dr Who 2.0
2024 Christmas Special 2.0 sound
(All from a Foxsat-HDR; but as the same SDI stream is sent to both platforms...)

Same as lots of other BBC Co-Productions: they are 5.1 on overseas as the expensive 5.1 mix is paid for by the Co-Producers. UK gets the stereo version often enough; but occasionally some 5.1 airings. All well known and documented on the various forums.

Strictly Come Dancing was 5.1 on live shows at one time but the production cost has stopped that in recent years.

 

[Owen Smith]

(All from a Foxsat-HDR; but as the same SDI stream is sent to both platforms...)

I'm not convinced that is always the case, or that it doesn't get molested later in the chain for satellite.

Same as lots of other BBC Co-Productions: they are 5.1 on overseas as the expensive 5.1 mix is paid for by the Co-Producers. UK gets the stereo version often enough; but occasionally some 5.1 airings. All well known and documented on the various forums.

I watched season 2 of Gentleman Jack a couple of weeks ago and that was a co-production. On BBC1 Freeview HD it was in 5.1 sound.

 

[Rodders53]

I'm not convinced that is always the case, or that it doesn't get molested later in the chain for satellite.

As I was employed within the BBC Dept responsible for Code & Mux and Transmission I can assure you that it is true.

(Theoretically any coder could be set differently but they take great pains to ensure the four sets of units per service are identically configured. Two sets per Code&Mux centre).

I watched season 2 of Gentleman Jack a couple of weeks ago and that was a co-production. On BBC1 Freeview HD it was in 5.1 sound.

A repeat and IIRC was also 5.1 when originally transmitted. BBC can / does commission some programmes for 5.1 production. Not all (due to costs) are. Simples.
Finding out which programmes are/are not is not easy.

Miss Austen is in 5.1 on my recordings of it. As it happens, made on the HDR-Fox-T2 as the Foxsat was otherwise occupied.

Googling I found some references to Five HD being 5.1 on some programmes when it was behind the $ky Paywall. Earlier in the year they went FTA on satellite. Nothing since so far.

 

[Owen Smith]

Googling I found some references to Five HD being 5.1 on some programmes when it was behind the $ky Paywall. Earlier in the year they went FTA on satellite. Nothing since so far.

It could be a year or more since I watched a film on Freeview HD Five that was in 5.1. It was strange that Five HD was FTA on terrestrial but not on satellite.

 

[Rodders53]

It could be a year or more since I watched a film on Freeview HD Five that was in 5.1. It was strange that Five HD was FTA on terrestrial but not on satellite.

Five HD Satellite was Contractual / carriage agreement reasons.
It went FTA on satellite/freesat when it also launched on Freeview on the same day.
Five was very, very late to join the Freeview HD mux (despite the bandwidth having to be kept for them); on 4th May 2016 as it happens.

NB It is the same as why Channel 4 has More 4 HD and Film 4 HD still behind $ky's paywall.
Even the U&Dave HD and U& Gold HD are on $ky, encrypted! $ky somehow make it "worth their while" to be a paid for encrypted service.

I'm still not convinced that 5 HD has been anything other than 2.0 on Freeview and 5.1 on Satellite since 2016. Especially as you believe it was on Freeview before Freesat and that happened nearly nine years ago. I suspect some confusion with Channel Four HD which was withdrawn from Freesat when the channel thew a hissy fit over EPG fees.

 

[prpr]

Five was very, very late to join the Freeview HD mux (despite the bandwidth having to be kept for them); on 4th May 2016 as it happens.

The enlightened amongst us had it on our boxes on 28th April!

BTW, OP, I think this thread should be split and not renamed due to thread drift.

 

[Owen Smith]

NB It is the same as why Channel 4 has More 4 HD and Film 4 HD still behind $ky's paywall.

And there was me wondering if I should buy an old Foxsat HDR to get More 4 HD and Film 4 HD. That answers my question, and I am not paying $ky their pound of flesh.