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Assume v. Presume

Black Hole said:
If the phrase is uttered in a religious context, the "place" could well be geographical (although I am not sure where Heaven is in the Church of Black Holes - inside the event horizon, or inside the singularity itself?). If the utterer is utilitarian, the "place" could be just in the ground (or in the case of a deceased sewage worker...). However, with regard to the "place" typically meant in current common usage, surely "situation" would be better? (and don't call me Shirley)
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Shirley! The name that must not be uttered! SHRLY (or SHRL if you regard y as a vowel). Or is it SRLY?
 
Black Hole said:
I disagree with your disagreement. I have long been of the opinion that, once the subtlty of meaning is dissected, there are no true synonyms such that the substitution of one word with another does not change the meaning in any way. To further my thesis, giving the general population the idea that there are synonyms is the core of the problem.
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But some words have multiple meanings. Place is one such, and so is position. However, in certain circumstances they are synonyms. The substitution then works.
 
My thesis is that, even when using the "same" meaning, substituting one word for another may result in very similar information, sufficient in the context, but not identical in its subtlties. "Please place this plate on the table" is different from "please position this plate on the table". The former could be taken to mean anywhere on the table, but the latter implies a requirement for precision.
 
Black Hole said:
I disagree with your disagreement. I have long been of the opinion that, once the subtlty of meaning is dissected, there are no true synonyms such that the substitution of one word with another does not change the meaning in any way. To further my thesis, giving the general population the idea that there are synonyms is the core of the problem.
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The definitions I've seen for Synonym generally admit to "exactly or nearly the same as another word or phrase" (my italic), and also that true synonyms (exact replication of meaning) are indeed rare. As you say, the great half-educated masses (or at least the media who 'educate' them) tend to just take the exact meaning. And more than a few think 'bought' and 'brought' are synonyms .... aargh!
 
Shirley the difference between 'almost synonyms' is easy to spot when looked at in the context of the sentence in which the word is contained, as in this definition of journey. The word 'position' would not fit comfortably in this sentence. The word 'position' could be used in the context of "the couple were in position 23 and then adopted position 103". This act does not exactly require a journey to accomplish, but moving from one place to another does.

journey
ˈdʒəːni/
noun
noun: journey; plural noun: journeys
  1. 1.​
    an act of travelling from one place to another.
    "an eight-hour train journey"
    synonyms: trip, expedition, period of travelling, tour, trek, voyage, cruise, safari, ride, drive, transfer;More
 
MikeSh said:
The definitions I've seen for Synonym generally admit to "exactly or nearly the same as another word or phrase" (my italic), and also that true synonyms (exact replication of meaning) are indeed rare. As you say, the great half-educated masses (or at least the media who 'educate' them) tend to just take the exact meaning. And more than a few think 'bought' and 'brought' are synonyms .... aargh!
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I agree with all that. The example at the end is just error, malapropism, ignorance, call it what you will.

However, where I disagree with God, and that is about the only point I disagree with him, apart from his commandment to restart all my HDDs at least 10000 times a year, is in his insistence that the use of one word instead of another is wrong, even in cases where they can be taken to be mean the same. I accept that the two words have multiple meanings, and that the spectrum of meanings for one is not the same as that for the other, but God, sorry, Black Hole, could provide some examples of incorrect usage where position and place have been used incorrectly. All he has done is provide examples where they are not equivalent in meaning and where few people would substitute one for the other. Who would say "I am not in a place to comment?"

I am not in a place to comment further. God has just decreed that I be committed to the Hummy Arms until I repent...
 
How about you give an example where the substitution of a word does not (you think) change the meaning one iota, and I'll pick holes in it.

Hummy Arms is only Purgatory; Assume v Presume is where the demons torment.
 
Or even third position in the list. But I suppose that this should be qualified to be totally unambiguous. Third position rom the top? Third position from the bottom etc.?
 
Trev said:
Or even third position in the list. But I suppose that this should be qualified to be totally unambiguous. Third position rom the top? Third position from the bottom etc.?
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And it may be an alphabetical list, not a ranking.

I don't really see place as appropriate in the context of first place if God's rules are to be obeyed. However, the thought of a runner carefully positioning themselves at the end of a race is not right either. (Though appropriate in the early stages.)

Is God talking about verbs or nouns or both? To position, to place, a position, a place.
 
Still no copious examples of blatant misuse of place and position, so I assume it is not really a problem we need to worry about.
 
Wasn't the original one good enough? "He's in a good place"; "My Strictly journey" - both prime examples of clichéd metaphorical usage.
 
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