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PC Construction
- Thread starter Black Hole
- Start date
D
Deleted member 473
Mine are all grey. Plan ruined by my wife buying some grey socks.BH, do you have a sock drawer? If so, it must be a bugger for you to analyse which pair to choose!
OP
Black Hole
May contain traces of nut
Paralysis of analysis, and tyranny of choice. Yes, I find it very difficult to make my mind up about anything (unless there is one clear path to the best possible outcome). It's a great help if the next time I go to the shoe shop they still sell the same model as I decided was the best suited to my requirements the last time. That's why I am posting here - in the hope that somebody already knows of a clear path forward.
Don't come to me for answers, come to me if you want a complete and detailed list of every factor that may affect a choice of personal preference, or if you truly want the optimal solution and are prepared to wait for it (possibly a very long time) - and if it comes to my personal preference, I'll take a rain check on that.
Don't come to me for answers, come to me if you want a complete and detailed list of every factor that may affect a choice of personal preference, or if you truly want the optimal solution and are prepared to wait for it (possibly a very long time) - and if it comes to my personal preference, I'll take a rain check on that.
D
Deleted member 473
But optimal is open to interpretation too. Optimal in performance may be sub-optimal in price. Optimal in upgradeability may be sub-optimal in performance. etc.
One problem I have noticed is that RAM changes performance, form factor and compatibility faster than anything else I know of, so your motherboard rapidly becomes out of date.
One problem I have noticed is that RAM changes performance, form factor and compatibility faster than anything else I know of, so your motherboard rapidly becomes out of date.
OP
Black Hole
May contain traces of nut
Absolutely. Hence the conundrum.
DDR4 and keep fingers crossed. Fortunately mobos themselves are not particularly expensive, as long as your existing proc fits! But then, if you were going to update the mobo anyway...
MikeSh
Well-Known Member
If you want the thing to be as long lived as possible then you just get the current 'best', which is also compatible with what you want/need to do.
Pick the most powerful processor and the latest ram. Find a well specced mb (ports, bays, etc) which supports your chosen processor and ram and populate it with your proc and as much ram as it will hold. Add case, discs and other bits as required.
You may still run out of oomph in a few years time but it'll still be longer than any other option you might take.
Not enough budget for that? Well, as you say you can't make the choices required you are stuffed really
hairy_mutley
Active Member
I have built several PCs over the years. I have always built with upgrade in mind, but by the time I have seriously looked at upgrade (other than extra RAM or HDD), it has always seemed more sensible to do a total rebuild.
These days, there is so much more choice, and compatibility can be a nightmare.
The most recent build was last summer and I used an approach I have used before
This time round, motherboard bundles were tempting (very little extra cost and pre-tested). However, I had a PSU failure a year earlier, so had a particularly good PSU, so I didn't need to replace PSU or case so I kitted the rest from 3 or 4 sources.
Strangely, the one thing that nearly caught me out was the CPU fan, most in my required cooling range would have been a few mm too tall for my existing case.
I tend to use Novatech, CCL, Scan & eBuyer.
These days, there is so much more choice, and compatibility can be a nightmare.
The most recent build was last summer and I used an approach I have used before
- look to see what pre-bundled motherboard, CPU, cooler & RAM bundles are available
- look to see what custom build PCs are around, try some PC configurators to get a feel for cost/feature trade offs
This time round, motherboard bundles were tempting (very little extra cost and pre-tested). However, I had a PSU failure a year earlier, so had a particularly good PSU, so I didn't need to replace PSU or case so I kitted the rest from 3 or 4 sources.
Strangely, the one thing that nearly caught me out was the CPU fan, most in my required cooling range would have been a few mm too tall for my existing case.
I tend to use Novatech, CCL, Scan & eBuyer.
OP
Black Hole
May contain traces of nut
During an idle five minutes I had a quick skim of "ryzen bundle" on Amazon. 
One thing that strikes me: I don't need or want Blackpool illuminations on my motherboard! It's gonna end up in a box. Even if the box had glass panels (why - the point of a metal box is to cut EMI), I'm not going to be conducting tours!
Meanwhile, in "sponsored products related to this item", while browsing for PC components that would outstrip a Cray, there were ads for RPi...
One thing that strikes me: I don't need or want Blackpool illuminations on my motherboard! It's gonna end up in a box. Even if the box had glass panels (why - the point of a metal box is to cut EMI), I'm not going to be conducting tours!
Meanwhile, in "sponsored products related to this item", while browsing for PC components that would outstrip a Cray, there were ads for RPi...
OP
Black Hole
May contain traces of nut
Shopping list for immediate purchase:
I notice the micro-ATX boards tend to have two DDR4 RAM sockets, and I assume I need to populate both. However, if I made sure I chose one with four sockets, I imagine I could populate two to start with and have two more available for upgrade. Does fitting four also give a memory access speed increase? The base speed seems to be 2133MHz (WTF!!! The last time I did anything like this was for a 386 system!).
Should I look for a motherboard with built-in WiFi and Bluetooth, or is that a rarity and actually I should just settle for USB dongles to fulfill those functions?
Most motherboards seem to include a socket for a SSD module (instead of needing a SATA connection for it). I may buy a graphics card eventually, but for now I need on-board graphics.
With that in mind, my reading indicates a 550W PSU will be adequate (they say you only need 750W for a dual graphics card configuration, but I don't see myself going that mad).
Answers/comments/tips welcome.
- Motherboard;
- Processor;
- Cooler;
- RAM;
- PSU.
I notice the micro-ATX boards tend to have two DDR4 RAM sockets, and I assume I need to populate both. However, if I made sure I chose one with four sockets, I imagine I could populate two to start with and have two more available for upgrade. Does fitting four also give a memory access speed increase? The base speed seems to be 2133MHz (WTF!!! The last time I did anything like this was for a 386 system!).
Should I look for a motherboard with built-in WiFi and Bluetooth, or is that a rarity and actually I should just settle for USB dongles to fulfill those functions?
Most motherboards seem to include a socket for a SSD module (instead of needing a SATA connection for it). I may buy a graphics card eventually, but for now I need on-board graphics.
With that in mind, my reading indicates a 550W PSU will be adequate (they say you only need 750W for a dual graphics card configuration, but I don't see myself going that mad).
Answers/comments/tips welcome.
MikeSh
Well-Known Member
I've never had much joy with adding ram. The new stuff never seems to play with the old, even though I've tried to match it. This has usually been several years down the line of course. So I end up junking the original and buying a complete set of however much I need.
My understanding is that VMs need plenty of space, hence my suggestion to stuff it with as much ram as possible from the start - I don't think you can ever have too much.
OTOH PSUs should be simple to replace; in fact they seem to fail quite often anyway. So I'd stick with a 550W unless/until you need more.
My understanding is that VMs need plenty of space, hence my suggestion to stuff it with as much ram as possible from the start - I don't think you can ever have too much.
OTOH PSUs should be simple to replace; in fact they seem to fail quite often anyway. So I'd stick with a 550W unless/until you need more.
OP
Black Hole
May contain traces of nut
So do (say) 4x 4GB perform better than 2x 8GB?
Trev
The Dumb One
Do't know, but as they will both look like a 16GB block of memory to the addressing mechanism, why should they. And how much difference does it make for all practical purposes. I suspect that there are bottlenecks somewhere else in the system that far outweighs the addressing/read/write speed.
Have had quite a few different computers now and have never had a PSU fail. Lucky or is it just that way?
Have had quite a few different computers now and have never had a PSU fail. Lucky or is it just that way?
I would be surprised if you needed to populate both although I would expect a modest performance boost from having both populated.
OP
Black Hole
May contain traces of nut
If each RAM module is on a different access channel, then doubling the number of modules doubles the memory bandwidth. I take it even fitting two is a benefit.
Seeing as the CPU runs blindingly fast internally, match it as best you can. There's no point me going into this half-baked, spoiling ships for ha'peths of tar.
Ditto, apart from the one that blew up (taking my HDDs with it) during a power interruption.
MikeSh
Well-Known Member
For PSUs I've had one definite fail and one sufficiently suspect to replace it. From memory I've had at least two, probably three, graphics cards go gaga (to be fair the two were the same type and failed at similar lifetimes, so probably the same fault).
For the memory I've no idea about performance differences, but if you are thinking 16GB is enough then put 32 in.
For the memory I've no idea about performance differences, but if you are thinking 16GB is enough then put 32 in.
OP
Black Hole
May contain traces of nut
Four 8GB modules sounds good (except for the price - I know I said about not spoiling the ship, but...).
What about the WiFi/Bluetooth issue? I'll probably be Ethernet long term, but to start with WiFi will be useful. I guess that's not so much of a problem if it's not built in. Do desktop mobos come with Bluetooth or is that more of a notebook thing?
What about the WiFi/Bluetooth issue? I'll probably be Ethernet long term, but to start with WiFi will be useful. I guess that's not so much of a problem if it's not built in. Do desktop mobos come with Bluetooth or is that more of a notebook thing?
MikeSh
Well-Known Member
Well obviously that's your choice to make. Personally I've found this 'upgrade' malarkey something of a pita, so I'd always try and build it with any plausible future already fitted.
When we moved house the PCs were nowhere near the router, so I bought a couple of WiFi cards (PCIe?) which served until I could run cables. They are pretty cheap.
(In fact I bought two sets. The first had the antenna on the card and because the PCs were near the WiFi limit and facing the router (so the case was between the antenna and router) it was very iffy. So I got another type with the aerial on a flying lead with a magnetic base which was then stuck on the side of each PC near the front to get a clearer signal path.)
Colsta
New Member
Obviously my considerations may differ from yours so my choice of hardware configuration may vary accordingly. But as it's wet outside, you're soliciting opinions, and I have a stinking rotten cold precluding me from doing anything else useful, here's my 10p's worth of waffle.
RAM:
Ryzen supports Dual Channel memory access which is the optimal configuration (1x2 or 2x2). In practice, operating in dual channel mode offers only a slight performance advantage over single channel (1x1 or 2x1) in certain workloads. Any potential gains are capable of being swallowed up by inadvertently choosing memory with slower CAS access timings. On a 2-slot board I would select the largest RAM module I could afford based on lowest access timings and fastest frequency matched to your choice of motherboard/processor and opt to run it in Single channel mode in order to keep the option of upgrading painlessly later. Of course, if your board has 4-slots then there's really no reason *not* to buy a matched pair of the size you can afford since you have a further 2 slots available for future upgrades when your budget allows.
At modern CPU speeds the possible slight difference in board trace length raising 2x2 access times over 1x2 in any given CPU cycle are rendered totally irrelevant when factoring in CAS latency which is measured in whole CPU cycles. There is also a slight power advantage to gain by minimising the number of RAM modules used. Nevertheless, the only advantage I can see where 1x2 is trumped by 2x2 is where adding extra RAM prevents memory paging out to disk.
PROCESSOR:
In fact the best performance per Watt figures are yielded by the 65W Ryzen models, so the vanilla 1600 may be a better choice especially where the cost saving can be ploughed into other components. They appear to be quite overclockable so any performance deficit is easily made up if so desired. Personally, I think I'd be happy to run at stock voltages and enjoy the power/cooling/noise advantages.
The only other comment I have on this point is that whilst 6-cores may appear to be overkill right now, it will certainly future-proof your machine once programs are written to take advantage of multiple cores/threads. I'll wager this will be sooner rather than later.
COOLER:
Most of the Ryzens come bundled with a Wraith cooler as standard which is more than capable of keeping temperatures under control for the tasks you state you wish to perform (unless you are thinking of seriously overclocking).
GRAPHICS:
Unfortunately, unlike Intel procs the Ryzens do not have any graphic processing capability built in. Unless you can hang on for the upcoming Ryzen based APU's (which rather temptingly are rummoured to be paired to Vega cores), you'll need to budget for a graphics card of some sort to draw pictures on your screen.
PSU:
Not much to say on this other than I read yonks back that the PSU only achieves maximum efficiency above a certain loading threshold (my flu-addled brain says 80% but this is not fact-checked). It's tempting to go "large" for future-proofing but if you have a shrewd idea what system you want to have as an end-goal, this may help you determine which wattage PSU would be the most efficient to run if indeed you haven't already done so
WIFI/Bluetooth:
If your board doesn't include these then M.2, PCI/E and USB form factors are all options it seems so you can cut your cloth according to your means. I have used (and can vouch for) the rather excellent Logitech K400's for Keyboard/Mouse access when using Raspberry Pi's as media PC's. But I have never needed to add either feature on an actual desktop machine preferring cabled peripherals and network access even if I have to use powerline adapters to do so.
RAM:
Ryzen supports Dual Channel memory access which is the optimal configuration (1x2 or 2x2). In practice, operating in dual channel mode offers only a slight performance advantage over single channel (1x1 or 2x1) in certain workloads. Any potential gains are capable of being swallowed up by inadvertently choosing memory with slower CAS access timings. On a 2-slot board I would select the largest RAM module I could afford based on lowest access timings and fastest frequency matched to your choice of motherboard/processor and opt to run it in Single channel mode in order to keep the option of upgrading painlessly later. Of course, if your board has 4-slots then there's really no reason *not* to buy a matched pair of the size you can afford since you have a further 2 slots available for future upgrades when your budget allows.
At modern CPU speeds the possible slight difference in board trace length raising 2x2 access times over 1x2 in any given CPU cycle are rendered totally irrelevant when factoring in CAS latency which is measured in whole CPU cycles. There is also a slight power advantage to gain by minimising the number of RAM modules used. Nevertheless, the only advantage I can see where 1x2 is trumped by 2x2 is where adding extra RAM prevents memory paging out to disk.
PROCESSOR:
In fact the best performance per Watt figures are yielded by the 65W Ryzen models, so the vanilla 1600 may be a better choice especially where the cost saving can be ploughed into other components. They appear to be quite overclockable so any performance deficit is easily made up if so desired. Personally, I think I'd be happy to run at stock voltages and enjoy the power/cooling/noise advantages.
The only other comment I have on this point is that whilst 6-cores may appear to be overkill right now, it will certainly future-proof your machine once programs are written to take advantage of multiple cores/threads. I'll wager this will be sooner rather than later.
COOLER:
Most of the Ryzens come bundled with a Wraith cooler as standard which is more than capable of keeping temperatures under control for the tasks you state you wish to perform (unless you are thinking of seriously overclocking).
GRAPHICS:
Unfortunately, unlike Intel procs the Ryzens do not have any graphic processing capability built in. Unless you can hang on for the upcoming Ryzen based APU's (which rather temptingly are rummoured to be paired to Vega cores), you'll need to budget for a graphics card of some sort to draw pictures on your screen.
PSU:
Not much to say on this other than I read yonks back that the PSU only achieves maximum efficiency above a certain loading threshold (my flu-addled brain says 80% but this is not fact-checked). It's tempting to go "large" for future-proofing but if you have a shrewd idea what system you want to have as an end-goal, this may help you determine which wattage PSU would be the most efficient to run if indeed you haven't already done so
WIFI/Bluetooth:
If your board doesn't include these then M.2, PCI/E and USB form factors are all options it seems so you can cut your cloth according to your means. I have used (and can vouch for) the rather excellent Logitech K400's for Keyboard/Mouse access when using Raspberry Pi's as media PC's. But I have never needed to add either feature on an actual desktop machine preferring cabled peripherals and network access even if I have to use powerline adapters to do so.
OP
Black Hole
May contain traces of nut
Ta muchly.
I'm thinking of playing with water cooling (or even something more exotic) at a later date - stock speeds and stock cooling will do for the moment.
I've found a note in the user guide for one of the motherboards I have an eye on, section "Onboard Graphics": * Only support when using a 7th Gen A-series/ Athlon™ processor. Hmph!
Update: curiously enough, the user manual for another mobo I'm watching doesn't mention any stipulation re processor for the "integrated graphics" - I'll take that with a pinch of salt until I get confirmation. GIGABYTE GA-AB350-Gaming 3
I'm not clear what you are saying here. Do you mean that there is no advantage in going beyond 2 modules - so 1 32GB is not as good as 2 x 16GB, and 4 x 8GB is no better than 2 x 16GB?
I had come to that conclusion too, Amazon currently have the Ryzen 5 1600 at £190 (give or take) and the 1600X at £220, but the 1600 includes a cooler while the 1600X doesn't and will need another tenner spent on a cooler. I'm not absolutely settled on the CPU though... if you were buying an Aston Martin it would be the 6 litre V12 wouldn't it?
I'm thinking of playing with water cooling (or even something more exotic) at a later date - stock speeds and stock cooling will do for the moment.
I have seen a comment that as the 6-core chips are just the 8-core chips with two cores faulty and disabled, they have more cache per core than the Ryzen 7 and can achieve a higher performance per core (per MHz).
See above.
Really? No mobos with built-in video at all? If so, I will have to buy my graphics card now (another minefield).
I've found a note in the user guide for one of the motherboards I have an eye on, section "Onboard Graphics": * Only support when using a 7th Gen A-series/ Athlon™ processor. Hmph!
Update: curiously enough, the user manual for another mobo I'm watching doesn't mention any stipulation re processor for the "integrated graphics" - I'll take that with a pinch of salt until I get confirmation. GIGABYTE GA-AB350-Gaming 3
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