Post crash and installation wizard

[Last.To.Know]

I'm not sure what WRT actually stands for,

Glad I am not the only one (this time).

If you are interested in upgrading your router beyond what your ISP offers with your contract, I recommend looking for one the OpenWRT project supports (even if you don't install it at the moment).

Either way, for the sort of thing you want to do, I am quite sure you would be better off with your own router than a cobbled ISP router.

Until it dies, the router is adequate for my needs.

 

[everthewatcher]

When I ditched my BT router, I also ditched its insistence on allowing freeloaders onto my limited bandwidth!

You can turn off BT Wi-fi / Fon via your BT account online, but do check it's actually been done - mine wasn't [actually] turned off and I had to ask them to do it manually.

Oddly my BT Smart Hub on Plusnet says BT Wi-fi is active when it's clearly not.

 

[Black Hole]

You can turn off BT Wi-fi / Fon via your BT account online, but do check it's actually been done - mine wasn't turned off and I had to ask them to do it manually.

I don't need to - I'm using a non-ISP router!

Until it dies, the router is adequate for my needs

So this whole thread is about something that isn't a problem then.

You'll be shocked to learn, I don't understand the concept of a submask.

Take a look on your Humax LAN settings: Menu >> Settings >> System >> Internet Setting >> Configure LAN: Netmask probably equals "255.255.255.0".

The "255" etc is just a convenient way of expressing four 8-bit binary fields, so "255.255.255.0" represents 32 bits:

1111 1111 1111 1111 1111 1111 0000 0000

This is a "mask", in as much as it selects between two fields. The zeros are where different devices on the same network have to have differences in their IP addresses, and the ones are where they all have to have the same values in their IP addresses. The commonality is the "subnet", ie the constant prefix in any IP address on your network.

Not only does the netmask control how any individual device detects its IP address, it is also necessary that the netmask is the same across all the devices (making it 255.255.254.0 - a change of just one bit - on a device, stops that device recognising its IP address, even if the result of applying the new mask to the subnet and IP address is the same).

Therefore, as you have been playing with IP address ranges without understanding what the subnet and netmask are, you've been pretty lucky to get away with it.

There are conventions for allocating subnets, which is why home networks normally have subnets 192.168.1.xxx or 192.168.0.xxx.

 

[everthewatcher]

18 years.

AAMOI interest what are you paying per month?

I've been swapping between BT and PN every time my contract ends to make use of new customer deals. Before you ask, you do keep the same number.

I'm currently with PN's 40/10 fibre BB and the cost per month over the 18 month contract comes out at £17.94 with 12 months' Line Rental Saver and a £70 cashback. No calling plan is included in that.

 

[everthewatcher]

So this whole thread is about something that isn't a problem then.

My thought too.

 

[Black Hole]

There are conventions for allocating subnets, which is why home networks normally have subnets 168.192.1.xxx or 168.192.0.xxx.

Out of curiosity: what happens if you want more than 254 devices on your network?

Is it just a case of widening the netmask to accommodate more addresses on the subnet, or is it necessary to operate multiple subnets and bridge between them?

 

[everthewatcher]

Out of curiosity: what happens if you want more than 254 devices on your network?

Is it just a case of widening the netmask to accommodate more addresses on the subnet...

From a quick refresh from my notes, yes, that's how it's done, by shifting bits from the host address to the network address. And you can get clever with netmasks like 255.255.255.128 and 255.255.128.0.

 

[rpb424]

Just to add to what BH said about subnets. The subnet effectively defines the maximum size of your 'private' local network, which for most people means the stuff in their own home connected to the router either wired or wireless. Hence if you use a 192.168.0.x range with a subnet of 255.255.255.0, that means that your local network can contain the addresses ranging from 192.168.0.0 to 192.168.0.255 (for technical reasons .0 and .255 aren't actually used for devices, so 254 addresses are available).

Why does this matter? Well, a device on your local network wanting to access another device on that same network uses the subnet mask to determine whether it ought to be able to reach that device directly, and if so then it does by firing packets at the destination's IP address. If however it determines that the required IP address is outside of the subnet range (e.g. 212.15.9.216) then it knows that what it needs to do is to send the data packets to what's known as the 'Gateway' address instead, which in most cases is the router itself (e.g. 192.168.0.1). A gateway is effectively a 'way out' of your network onto another one. The router (which is your gateway) receives these packets and knows that these are destined for somewhere not on the local network, so it needs to forward them on to another network i.e. the wider internet in this case, and hence sends them off down your ISP connection and awaits a response.

You can make your network bigger simply by widening the mask (e.g. 255.255.0.0 gives 65536 addresses), but for the reasons stated above you need to be careful not to make it so wide that it encompasses IP address that you really intend to be external, or else you will never get a response from a valid internet IP address if your device thinks it is actually local and doesn't use the gateway.

 

[Black Hole]

Am I correct that the netmask itself has to match across the devices on the subnet - effectively part of the addressing mechanism?

 

[Trev]

So this whole thread is about something that isn't a problem then

Nope. Just go back to post 11 where LTK asks about a fix his 'problem'. To which the answer seems to be 'No', but it could be done (by the experts).
Others have subsequently dragged it away from that onto the pros and cons of 10.x.x.x. v 192.169.x.x and subset masks, different routers/worst router in the world, ISPs etc. etc.

 

[Black Hole]

Sure, but at least part of the problem is the unconventional allocation of IP addresses and the OP's router's inability to allocate DHCP addresses on the basis of MAC. Therefore this:

Until it dies, the router is adequate for my needs.

...is not a true statement of affairs.

 

[Trev]

Not disputing that at all. The point that I was trying to make is that

So this whole thread is about something that isn't a problem then

Is not true. OP still has his problem albeit a fairly minor one that could be addressed in a number of different ways as suggested variously above.
Other than the various fixes mentioned, this seems to be the 'real fix',

.....No doubt this could be extended to handle the case where fixed manual Ethernet settings are in use.

but of course relies on /df 'doing stuff' for one member who does not to want to employ one of the alternative 'fixes'.

 

[Black Hole]

OP still has his problem albeit a fairly minor one that could be addressed in a number of different ways as suggested variously above.

The problem is the errant manner in which a few of us have noticed the HDR switches itself, apparently unbidden, from Manual to DHCP. Disregarding any novel technical solution, the DIY solution is to enforce the desired IP address at the router, by ensuring it hands out that address by DHCP. This is something many of us can do (in our routers' settings), but apparently the OP can't. Therefore it is the router that is inadequate for the purpose, given that the HDR does what it does and many of us can compensate for it.

 

[rpb424]

Am I correct that the netmask itself has to match across the devices on the subnet - effectively part of the addressing mechanism?

Not necessarily, it depends on what you expect to reach locally from the individual device. When at work I'm on a 255.255.0.0 subnet usually, but if I restrict my machine further to 255.255.255.0 then I can still ping another device within that now smaller subnet even though that device is still set to 255.255.0.0, and it responds because it's (wider) subnet setting still tells it that my machine is local too.

 

[prpr]

You'll be shocked to learn, I don't understand the concept of a submask.

OK . But is it 255.255.255.0 or 255.0.0.0 ?

Not only does the netmask control how any individual device detects its IP address, it is also necessary that the netmask is the same across all the devices (making it 255.255.254.0 - a change of just one bit - on a device, stops that device recognising its IP address, even if the result of applying the new mask to the subnet and IP address is the same).

That's not quite what it does. But rpb424 has already answered that comprehensively.

Is it just a case of widening the netmask to accommodate more addresses on the subnet, or is it necessary to operate multiple subnets and bridge between them?

Depends whether you want connectivity at layer 2 or not. If you do, then the former. If not, then the latter. And you ROUTE between subnets, not bridge. Routing is a layer 3 function. Bridging is a layer 2 function.

Am I correct that the netmask itself has to match across the devices on the subnet - effectively part of the addressing mechanism?

Yes. Quoting IP addresses without subnet masks is pointless, but (ignorant) people do it all the time and assume the reader knows what they're talking out. It's obvious with certain domestic style network ranges as you can infer it from common usage, but not with others.

10.x.x.x (or 10.0.0.0/8) defaults to a subnet mask of 255.0.0.0 which is hugely wide and you would never run a network like that. You would subnet it.
Hence my original question.

 

[rpb424]

OK . But is it 255.255.255.0 or 255.0.0.0 ?

10.x.x.x (or 10.0.0.0/8) defaults to a subnet mask of 255.0.0.0 which is hugely wide and you would never run a network like that. You would subnet it.
Hence my original question.

In this case you can get away with either since the entire Class A 10.x.x.x range is defined as private, but it wouldn't be so good being that wide on 192.168.x.x etc.

 

[Last.To.Know]

I've been swapping between BT and PN every 12 or 18 months to take advantage of their new customer only offers. Currently I'm with PN but I'm using the leftover BT Smart Hub to connect.

Ignore.

 

[/df]

...
Other than the various fixes mentioned, this seems to be the 'real fix',
but of course relies on /df 'doing stuff' for one member who does not to want to employ one of the alternative 'fixes'.

OP's original question was about retuning! To which I believe the answer has always been: do the automatic retune, restore your automatically saved schedule, favourites and (now working) favourite group names using WebIf>Scheduled Events>Backup and Restore (IIRC); use tunefix if you want to corral the channels in particular ways.

Then L.t.K raised the question of automatically restoring static network settings. In post #36 I provided a plausible solution to forcing manual addresses on eth0, so long as the original static address settings have not been erased.

A work-around for forcing the entire LAN or WLAN settings, taking advantage of the existing CF functionality without complex scripting, could be as follows:

1. set the networking settings for whichever interface in WebIf>Settings>Network Settings and press Save;
2. find a resulting file in /mod/boot/dbupdate (IIRC the name begins with "webif") and copy it as, eg, /mod/etc/network.dbupdate;
3. if you need to force the other interface as well, repeat step 1 for that interface and append the resulting file to the one you previously saved;
4. create a script /mod/etc/init.d/S99forcenetwork (make it executable - example):
   

   #!/bin/sh
   # in case this directory wasn't automatically created ...
   mkdir -p /mod/boot/dbupdate
   cp /mod/etc/network.dbupdate /mod/boot/dbupdate
   exit 0

Now after restarting, the system will stash the canned settings in the Flash file system so that at the next start-up those settings will be reinstated in the settings database ready for the Humax set-top binary to use (the dbupdate boot process discards the settings file afterwards, so it has to be copied back again: hence the script).

If the Flash gets reformatted, the network settings should be restored after a further restart.[/list]

 

[Last.To.Know]

OK . But is it 255.255.255.0 or 255.0.0.0 ?

10.x.x.x (or 10.0.0.0/8) defaults to a subnet mask of 255.0.0.0 which is hugely wide and you would never run a network like that. You would subnet it.
Hence my original question.

Is this information relevent to your question?
In my router:-

    TCP/IP Configuration
    Auto-IP Enabled:    Enabled
    Use DHCP Server:    Enabled
    IP Addresses

IP Address/Mask    Type  
10.0.0.1/24    Static
10.0.0.138/24    Static
169.254.90.28/16    Auto

    DHCP Pools
DHCP Pool Name    Address Range    Gateway  
LAN_VIRT    192.168.1.253 - 192.168.1.253    192.168.1.254
dhcp_pool_2    10.0.0.16 - 10.0.0.19    10.0.0.1
dhcp_pool_1    10.0.0.25 - 10.0.0.39    10.0.0.1

 

[Last.To.Know]

Take a look on your Humax LAN settings: Menu >> Settings >> System >> Internet Setting >> Configure LAN: Netmask probably equals "255.255.255.0".

The "255" etc is just a convenient way of expressing four 8-bit binary fields, so "255.255.255.0" represents 32 bits:

1111 1111 1111 1111 1111 1111 0000 0000

This is a "mask", in as much as it selects between two fields. The zeros are where different devices on the same network have to have differences in their IP addresses, and the ones are where they all have to have the same values in their IP addresses. The commonality is the "subnet", ie the constant prefix in any IP address on your network.

Not only does the netmask control how any individual device detects its IP address, it is also necessary that the netmask is the same across all the devices (making it 255.255.254.0 - a change of just one bit - on a device, stops that device recognising its IP address, even if the result of applying the new mask to the subnet and IP address is the same).

Therefore, as you have been playing with IP address ranges without understanding what the subnet and netmask are, you've been pretty lucky to get away with it.

There are conventions for allocating subnets, which is why home networks normally have subnets 192.168.1.xxx or 192.168.0.xxx.

Thank you, BH.

That is a clear explanation which I pretty much understand.

Yes, I am guessing I have been lucky, meddling with things I barely understand.

You are, of course correct: my Humax has a submask of "255.255.255.0", as do all the devices where I have managed to find the submask.

All except... this PC, which has a submask of "255.0.0.0", which, I presume is wrong to have?

Should I change it to "255.255.255.0"?