Failing tuner?

[prpr]

All three started recording on time but ITN News - the last of the three - finished a few seconds early

Everything I record from ITV always has the end cut off. Always. They're incompetent or just don't care. Probably both.
Thankfully the number of things I watch from them in a year numbers fewer than the number of fingers on one hand.

maybe the broadcast signals come from the main studio and not the regional one!

It doesn't work like that for the EIT data. It's irrelevant where the video source is.

There is a file attached if you want more info, any comments would be appreciated.

So you've proved both your tuners are working simultaneously. Now repeat the same test with padding rather than AR.

 

[Lefteris]

So you've proved both your tuners are working simultaneously. Now repeat the same test with padding rather than AR.

I already did it with padding - it's what started this current part of the thread. Every time, the second programme would not start until the first one's padding time had ended, thus truncating the start of the second programme by up to 5 mins. BTW I agree about ITV - hardly anything worth recording these days.

 

[EEPhil]

I can't really comment on how the FOX-T2's behave, but my observations from a 2000T using padding (I have 2m before and 5m after as a setting):
The recording schedule shows the time of the programme. For example, "Public Eye" on TPTV shows 20:00-21:00 but records from 19:58-21:05. You can be lulled into a false sense of security thinking the programme finishes at 21:00 because the schedule says so.

Every time, the second programme would not start until the first one's padding time had ended, thus truncating the start of the second programme by up to 5 mins

Assuming the programmes are on different channels, this would suggest (to me) that you are recording another programme at the same time.
Somewhere on these threads I did a test which showed how consecutive recordings with padding (https://hummy.tv/forum/threads/1800t-buffering-problem.6565/post-86643) on the same channel behave. It isn't always as simple as the second doesn't start until the first padding has finished.
If you use padding you have to be aware when you schedule things that they may overlap even when the EPG says they don't. I find it is one of the black arts to try and predict how the Humax will behave if you manage to schedule three or four items that overlap because of padding. I know many on these threads like to automate everything but I find I have to check the schedule and manually adjust things if I spot an overlap. Tedious, time consuming it may be, but it avoids some of the problems described. I suppose one could argue that Humax should have anticipated this problem and written the software to cope.

 

[Lefteris]

Assuming the programmes are on different channels, this would suggest (to me) that you are recording another programme at the same time.

I can confirm that I was only recording two programmes in every instance - the HDR2-T can only record two programmes at once, and I always check the filename as I copy them from the HDR2-T using an FTP utility. As you rightly say, the filename shows the exact start and stop time of the recording - my previously attached pdf files show this clearly. Alas, I agree with you that using AR sometimes is not good since some broadcasters don't seem able to get the appropriate start and stop signal right, if indeed they send one at all. I also seem to recall that the HDR2-T EPG will flag up a clash if the padding causes an unacceptable overlap. Having started using AR on my suspect box, already one programme did not start on time ! What can we do !

 

[Black Hole]

AR is worthwhile on the major services. For the minor services I either record on a dedicated auto-padding machine or I use multimode to selectively apply padding.

Every time, the second programme would not start until the first one's padding time had ended, thus truncating the start of the second programme by up to 5 mins.

You've come up with a curiosity, because that should only happen if the second programme is from the same mux but not the same LCN, or a different mux but the other tuner is tied up.

 

[Lefteris]

Yes and what is more curious, it only started happening sometime in the last 2 or 3 months - not sure exactly when because I was on holiday. I know we had a brief power cut while we were away, and the other HDR2-T froze, and our central heating controller did a wobbly, but this HDR re-booted and kept going. Last year when it threw a wobbly, I think you commented that there might be a problem with the control electronics on the front panel - I'm not technical in that respect so I really don't know but I took your advice then and left it permanently on, since it was in the On/Off/Standby cycle it seemed to be having a problem. It had been behaving very well since then. Anyway, I will take your advice again about using multimode where appropriate. Thanks

 

[Black Hole]

What is still confusing is that you reported this behaviour on two machines - does that remain the case?

 

[Lefteris]

Yes, further update - I was thinking my other HDR-2 was OK, but yesterday I recorded 2 programmes from different MUXes one finished at 9pm the other started at 9pm (this box is still on Manual Padding) and the second prog did not start until the first one's finish padding had ended. Trying to track down if there's a recording where two programmes overlapped instead of finish and start at the same time

 

[Lefteris]

One reason I thought the second box was OK is that Thursday I recorded two programmes from the same MUX with finish and start times the same (ie 10pm) and they were both OK !

 

[Lefteris]

Trying to track down if there's a recording where two programmes overlapped instead of finish and start at the same time

Last night I recorded two programmes - 1 on Ch4 8:30pm till 10:20pm and 1 on BBC2 10:00pm till 10:45pm - they both recorded fine, the 2nd one starting correctly at 9:58pm as per the manual padding. So it appears it's only when one programme finishes and the 2nd one starts at the identical time, that there's a problem. Any ideas ?

 

[Black Hole]

In my humble opinion, what you are suffering from is confusion. I reckon what you have observed is the normal documented behaviour as previously noted, possibly combined with some EPG timing errors, and only thinking you have a real problem.

 

[RobH1]

In my humble opinion

Quote of the day!

 

[Lefteris]

In my humble opinion, what you are suffering from is confusion. I reckon what you have observed is the normal documented behaviour as previously noted, possibly combined with some EPG timing errors, and only thinking you have a real problem.

Well BH, you could be right, as it's true that the 'apparent' problems can be worked around by not setting recordings that I now know will not work properly - however, the results are real, and my Dad always taught me to try and fix problems ! Out of interest, since these HDR-FOX T2's are getting on a bit (like their owner), are any other PVR's in the Humax range up to their capabilities, including using the Custom Firmware ? Thanks for your patience

 

[Trev]

NO!
Why are you using padding anyway?

 

[Black Hole]

are any other PVR's in the Humax range up to their capabilities, including using the Custom Firmware ?

No.

the 'apparent' problems can be worked around by not setting recordings that I now know will not work properly

All equipment has some kind of limit on its capability that has to be accommodated by the user. Where we disagree is whether your experience is inside or outside the normal operating envelope.

These are design limitations of the HDR-FOX, and cannot be "fixed":

1. It is not possible to record more than two streams simultaneously, plus the time shift buffer.​

​

2. It is not possible to record from more than two multiplexes simultaneously, including to the time shift buffer.​

​

3. It is not possible to record more than one stream from the same service simultaneously, including to the time shift buffer.​

Anything not prohibited by the above design limitations should work.

The next factor is how AR and auto-padding recording modes operate:

1. AR recordings rely on the broadcaster transmitting a programme start flag to trigger the recording, within a tolerance window of the EPG-advertised official start time. In general, AR flags are reliable on the major services, but if a previous live event overruns (or under-runs) too much the HDR-FOX will give up waiting (or miss the start flag) and fail to record. If the broadcaster fails to transmit the correct start flag, the programme will not be recorded. ITV tends to transmit the flag a little late.​

​

There is anecdotal evidence of AR misoperation being improved by a full system reset (restore factory defaults).​

​

2. Auto-padding records to the latest EPG-advertised programme start and end times, plus the user-selected pre- and post-padding, regardless of last-minute schedule changes due to live events. It is, however, subject to the above recording capability limitations due to additional overlaps created by the padding. Post-padding is given priority over pre-padding, but if the overlap is due to consecutive programmes from the same service the intervening padding is dropped altogether.​

​

Where recording of a programme is prevented by the design limitations, it picks up when conditions allow (when the conflicting recording ends, including its post-padding).​

If you are certain your examples demonstrate misoperation not excluded by the design limitations, the only conclusion to draw is that something is broken, and the overwhelming likelihood is a tuner module (or the data routing from one particular tuner module). Any other fault should affect both tuners, not just one. However, as you have confirmed both tuners (and their data paths) are working, it is very hard to imagine a fault that could reproduce only the symptoms you report.

Therefore, one has to weigh the balance of probability of an almost inconceivable fault that presents as a broken tuner even though the tuners pass the reception test, as opposed to incorrect user expectation.

 

[Lefteris]

NO!
Why are you using padding anyway?

Because certainly in the past and to some extent on the lesser channels today, the signals required for AR were/are not always accurate and sometimes not there at all. Padding has the drawback that if programme times get changed too much, you'll miss the prog, but on the whole it is more reliable

 

[Lefteris]

Therefore, one has to weigh the balance of probability of an almost inconceivable fault that presents as a broken tuner even though the tuners pass the reception test, as opposed to incorrect user expectation.

Thanks BH for your comprehensive reply, and I have to say, I know all that - the last thing I will try is a complete factory reset to see if the annecdotal evidence is correct. I have been using my Humax recorders for some years with the Custom Software which has always proved to be excellent - I'm just thrown by the changes I have seen over the last couple of months in the performance of my boxes, so I will take them back to scratch, reset everything, and let you know if my 'expectations' can return to their former confidence !

 

[tonybonner]

but I took your advice then and left it permanently on, since it was in the On/Off/Standby cycle it seemed to be having a problem.

I've never used padding so this is just a food-for-thought remark. If watching a programme and the T2 wants to make 2 other recordings on different muxes it puts up a message warning that the watched channel will be changed and sits there a while to let you decide to accept the change or cancel the imminent recording. I would 'assume' (never a great idea) that if this happened on an unattended system that's always on it would eventually flip the channel to allow the recording to happen but I wonder how effectively the prompt delay and the padding settings would interact? Like I said, just chucking the thought out there - feel free to shoot it down in flames if you have experience of this scenario.

 

[Lefteris]

Which Ch4 and which BBC2?
Knowing that and the answer to Tony's question would help understand the circumstances when this is occurring.

Also how exactly are you setting up the padding? In post #68 you stated that it was still on "Manual Padding" which I presume is via the settings, but have you got anything else or done anything else that could change the timers in the schedule, e.g. multimode, or editing the timer directly within the schedule?

Both are the SD channels, so they are one each on the two PSB Channels/MUXes - I set the padding in Settings directly on the box, and I have always had Multimode set, though I infrequently use the facility to enable AR. With regard to Tony's question, I seldom use the Humax to watch TV live, so the problem of it wanting to change channels because of a recording conflict does not exist. Furthermore, nowadays I use the KODI media player on my NAS to watch most recorded items, so not affecting the Humax at all.

I'm not sure what is meant by changing the timers within the schedule, unless you mean Manual Scheduling which I do use occasionally particularly if a film is broken mid-way by a Newsy segment (like Ch 5 and Paramount do sometime) when I set the schedule to cover the complete transmission including the interjection - Manual Scheduling has always worked perfectly unless the broadcaster has radically changed the timing of a programme. I also use Manual Scheduling if two episodes of a series follow on from one another, when use of padded recording would not work - I record manually both episodes as one recording.

Hope this answers your questions

 

[tonybonner]

left it permanently on

This was the significant part of your quote.
You don't need to be actively viewing on the T2. If it is permanently on then one of the tuners is actively connected to a mux - regardless of whether you are looking at it or not.